View Poll Results: Doesn't a middle class tax cut also benefit the rich?

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Thread: Doesn't a middle class tax cut also benefit the the Rich?

  1. #41
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Doesn't a middle class tax cut also benefit the the Rich?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No you don't. If you did, you would evaluate political policies (e.g. tax cuts for the middle class) on their merits, rather than on how they would play out politically. Your desire to punish the middle-class with higher taxes, simply because they favor policies that you don't agree with, is petty and childish. This is exactly how politics should NOT work.



    A nice boilerplate talking point, but in your case it is certainly not true.



    I would never claim that all conservatives are only concerned about themselves. Just you.



    That isn't because of your political views or your socioeconomic status. It's because you're annoying. And who is attacking whom again? You called me "dishonest and silly" in Post #14 after I simply requested that you support your speculation with some evidence, without even disputing your claim.
    yeah more of the sanctimonious bs that your crap don't stink nonsense.

    SO how can you prove that I don't believe that you know what is best for you?

    since you are so into proof

    now go back to whining about the rich and boohooing about the poor



  2. #42
    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: Doesn't a middle class tax cut also benefit the the Rich?

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    Doesn't a middle class tax cut (AGI up to $250K) also benefit the the Rich?

    Options:

    Yes
    No
    I don't know.
    simply answer

    yes absolutely, thats just economics 101 and common sense

    now if you want to debate how much, long term and what we actually need vs what the economy will respond to faster longer etc then fine, do that

    but the answer is yer
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  3. #43
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    Re: Doesn't a middle class tax cut also benefit the the Rich?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    SO how can you prove that I don't believe that you know what is best for you?
    I'm too lazy to even try to untangle that grammatical mess of a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude
    since you are so into proof
    Actually I was asking if you had any evidence to support your speculation that the middle-class are less likely to support big government when their tax burden is proportionally higher, as I have never seen any such indication. Clearly you have no such evidence. Not that it would matter much even if you did; it wouldn't change the fact that assessing policies on how they will play out politically is a piss-poor way to think about policy. I mean, it's not like I oppose Cuban immigration just because it might result in more Republican voters.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude
    now go back to whining about the rich and boohooing about the poor
    I've never whined about the rich, as I'm hardly strapped for cash myself. And yeah, it's ridiculous to claim that you aren't motivated by pure selfishness just before you use the phrase "boohooing about the poor" and just after you call everyone who isn't rich "the parasite class." At least you could embrace your inner Gekko, instead of trying to pretend that he isn't there and that you're just concerned with what's best for the country.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-28-10 at 11:24 PM.
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  4. #44
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Doesn't a middle class tax cut also benefit the the Rich?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I'm too lazy to even try to untangle that grammatical mess of a question.



    Actually I was asking if you had any evidence to support your speculation that the middle-class are less likely to support big government when their tax burden is proportionally higher, as I have never seen any such indication. Clearly you have no such evidence.



    I've never whined about the rich, as I'm hardly strapped for cash myself. And yeah, it's ridiculous to claim that you aren't motivated by pure selfishness just before you use the phrase "boohooing about the poor" and just after you call everyone who isn't rich "the parasite class." At least you could embrace your inner Gekko, instead of trying to pretend that he isn't there and that you're just concerned with what's best for the country.
    I will try to make this as simple as possible for you

    I) scenario one-the vast majority of people don't suffer tax hikes even when government spending increases

    2) scenario two-the vast majority of people suffer tax hikes when the government spending increases

    what scenario is more likely to produce a strong demand that government spending be curtailed?



  5. #45
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    Re: Doesn't a middle class tax cut also benefit the the Rich?

    It is not that tough a question



  6. #46
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    Re: Doesn't a middle class tax cut also benefit the the Rich?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I will try to make this as simple as possible for you

    I) scenario one-the vast majority of people don't suffer tax hikes even when government spending increases

    2) scenario two-the vast majority of people suffer tax hikes when the government spending increases

    what scenario is more likely to produce a strong demand that government spending be curtailed?
    That's just your speculation though. I could just as easily make a plausible argument for exactly the opposite conclusion:
    Scenario 1 - The middle-class is more strapped for cash due to higher taxes, and therefore is more likely to support government programs to ease their economic burdens.
    Scenario 2 - The middle-class keeps more of their own money due to lower taxes, and therefore is less likely to care about government programs to ease their economic burdens.

    I'm not saying that that is what would happen, as it's all speculation. Nevertheless your situation doesn't seem any more inherently plausible than mine unless you have some empirical evidence to support it.

    But regardless, even if your speculation was 100% accurate and the middle-class was less likely to support big government when they were taxed more, it doesn't change the fact that it's childish to evaluate policies based on whether or not they'll bring about more voters who favor your specific agenda, rather than whether or not they are good policies. And it's just plain mean and spiteful to raise their taxes not because you actually think it's good economic policy, but merely to punish them for voting contrary to your wishes.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-28-10 at 11:52 PM.
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  7. #47
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    Re: Doesn't a middle class tax cut also benefit the the Rich?

    so you think its a good policy to spend more and more and more and only think the rich should pay more tax?



  8. #48
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    Re: Doesn't a middle class tax cut also benefit the the Rich?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    so you think its a good policy to spend more and more and more
    To a point, yes. I have no problem at all with government paying for public goods, or to correct market failures, or to pay for necessities which people can't afford on their own, or to stimulate the economy during recessions, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude
    and only think the rich should pay more tax?
    Yes. It makes more sense to milk the cow than to milk the bull. And it makes more sense to tax the people who actually have money than those who don't. That's not out of "envy and spite," but a pragmatic view: If Group A would be disproportionately harmed by increased taxes while contributing relatively little revenue, whereas Group B would be relatively unaffected by increased taxes while contributing a lot of revenue, it makes more economic sense to tax Group B. Taxing Group A merely because they don't vote the way you want them to vote, however, *is* motivated by spite.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-29-10 at 12:10 AM.
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  9. #49
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    Re: Doesn't a middle class tax cut also benefit the the Rich?

    people get tired of being milked and get nothing back in return. those targeted for tax hikes by obama will get no additional benefits for that soaking. you miss the point that the politically expedient act of soaking the rich only causes more and more spending as those who want the spending have no reason to reign it in since they aren't paying for it

    if people are expected to carry most of the load in paying for government services they damn well ought to get additional goverment benefits which certainly is not the case now



  10. #50
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    Re: Doesn't a middle class tax cut also benefit the the Rich?

    Taxes 101

    Our tax system uses a progressive tax model. Income is evaluated in brackets. As your income increases you enter higher tax brackets and higher % of your income in that bracket. To be clear, everyone pays the same % on the first $8,375. Its 10% so everyone pays up to the max of $837.50 if you make over $8375.00. Rich and poor. If your income is greater than $8,375 you move into the next bracket and pay 15% on everything you earn within that tax bracket.

    So if your taxable income is $100,000 you would pay the following
    ( $ 8,375 minus 0 ) x .10 : $837.50
    ( 34,000 minus 8,375 ) x .15 : $3,843
    ( 82,400 minus 34,000 ) x .25 : $12,100
    ( 100,000 minus 82,400 ) x .28 : $4,928
    Total: $ 21708.5


    Based upon your question then yes. If the bottom brackets stay the same or go down then both rich and poor benefit. BUT, to the poor and middle class the actual % increase in disposible income is a significantly higher than what the rich would get. In fact that few thousand dollars is nothing to someone who makes $250k or more.

    I am not saying I like the tax system we have or what it is spent on. This is just the facts.

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