View Poll Results: Does communism cause most of the population to live in poverty?

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    17 40.48%
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Thread: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

  1. #61
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    No nation could accomplish a government based on pure Marxist principles for very long. These principles completely ignore human nature. Survival of the fittest is part of who we are as a species and, to be completely honest, capitalism more honestly embraces that than does communism.
    ”People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.” --- Ben Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The German View Post
    Sterotypes are mostly based on truths.

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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    You know - I feel I can't comment on communism because I've never lived it. I've never deeply examined it. And our culture shuns it fully with an almost brainwashed 'it's bad' baseline.
    People only reject communism, when they are told it's communism.
    When it comes to unnamed ideas, people will embrace a lot of the communist egalitarianism.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Communism has never truly existed on a large scale. It can't. Its ultimate principles, along with simple humanistic tendencies, prevent "true communism" existing on anything larger than a very local scale.

    The Soviet-style totalitarianism people referred to as "communism" with a McCarthyist twinge to it requires all people to live in equal poverty. Those command economies are paradigms of stagnation and anti-growth practicality that prevents progressivism of any type.

    While it's the most efficient type of rule, you don't exactly need to be into rocket science to figure out the maximum efficiency of incredibly scarce resources.

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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    They want stuff because people like having stuff.
    Humans are tool users, that's why we like stuff.



    The communists came to power through popular revolution.
    The people consented to the militaristic action through popular support.

    The fact that it stayed a heavy handed authoritarian system only shows that nations can not be communal in nature because the communal ownership will collapse.



    No it isn't.
    These communist governments had popular support, they had popular support for the military actions they undertook.
    The fact that the people of the nation supported the authoritarian taking of power, shows that it is authoritarian in nature.
    It can not be sustained without an authoritarian hand.

    Communal owners are just a slightly different form of stockholder.
    The bolded statement: That is not true. They do not collect without being a working part of the company. Theiir pay is no higher than anyone elses. They do not get free perks as they are workers in the company. You seem to have not the slightest clue of what you are talking about.

    In the US stockholders reap income off the backs of others. They toss in a few dollars and get massive returns which they did nothing to earn. How is this the same? Explain?
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    You're right, but like the Soviet Union they are indicative of what happens when a country sets out to be communist.
    When you attempt to alter a nation by revolution the problem is already ceated that will be the instrument of the fall. It needs not be revolution. A nation can be changed by laws and education. The US teaches that Capitalism is a god. If that is changed children will grow up knowing and believing in whatever system is in place is the best. The difficulty with Americans is that they have no clue how they are being raped by the system at least half of them defend. All republicans and conservatives and right wing religious nuts are not CEO's. The only thing they have in common is that they are stupid and like to be taken advatage of by lies from the top.
    The flame that is between us could set every soul on fire. I would love to take that heat and let's fill the whole world with desire.
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by peepnklown View Post
    Well, if we look at the ‘communists’ states of the past and present, the ‘yes, pretty much’ option is correct.
    Most of the population lives in poverty while the leaders vacuum the wealth of the nation.
    Name the country you intend to look at. I can't find one to use an example.
    The flame that is between us could set every soul on fire. I would love to take that heat and let's fill the whole world with desire.
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    No nation could accomplish a government based on pure Marxist principles for very long. These principles completely ignore human nature. Survival of the fittest is part of who we are as a species and, to be completely honest, capitalism more honestly embraces that than does communism.
    How do you know that? Perhaps human nature has been preverted by the systems that people live in. Genorsity is a way of life. Most people are very giving and free about it. I find humanity to be very caring and sharing. When you live or grow up in a hoarding material society how else will you act. People learn by years of experience to take what they can get for themselves and piss on the rest. Is it the systems that have altered human nature? Are people driven by greed as the US system would have them?
    The flame that is between us could set every soul on fire. I would love to take that heat and let's fill the whole world with desire.
    Sophie B. Hawkins

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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by katiegrrl0 View Post
    The bolded statement: That is not true. They do not collect without being a working part of the company. Theiir pay is no higher than anyone elses. They do not get free perks as they are workers in the company. You seem to have not the slightest clue of what you are talking about.

    In the US stockholders reap income off the backs of others. They toss in a few dollars and get massive returns which they did nothing to earn. How is this the same? Explain?
    Their income is not free off the backs of others.

    They must work to earn the money to invest in the company and the return on a single share of stock is negligible, so they must work more, to have the resources to invest in the company to earn more money.

    My companies share price is usually around 25$, their annual dividend rate is $.63, how can you call that a "massive" return?
    I must put up $25 to get the return of $.63.

    Shareholders provide a benefit to the company, loaning money for the prospect of a return, not a guaranteed return but a risk appropriate return.
    A worker only gives his labor, largely risk free and is paid in near immediate terms.
    A worker does not give his additional resources to finance the buying of materials, machinery, land, structures, advertising or anything else.

    It is, though, an example of mutual aid.
    Not very far away from communal ownership, which is what a shareholder is, a communal owner.
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 09-26-10 at 05:17 PM.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Their income is not free off the backs of others.

    They must work to earn the money to invest in the company and the return on a single share of stock is negligible, so they must work more, to have the resources to invest in the company to earn more money.

    My companies share price is usually around 25$, their annual dividend rate is $.63, how can you call that a "massive" return?
    I must put up $25 to get the return of $.63.

    Shareholders provide a benefit to the company, loaning money for the prospect of a return, not a guaranteed return but a risk appropriate return.
    A worker only gives his labor, largely risk free and is paid in near immediate terms.
    A worker does not give his additional resources to finance the buying of materials, machinery, land, structures, advertising or anything else.

    It is, though, an example of mutual aid.
    Not very far away from communal ownership, which is what a shareholder is, a communal owner.
    In a Communist society the company does not need the money of the blood sucking leach called a stockholder. The coampanies grow as the money that is profit is put toward expansion. There is no bloodsucker to take even .63 away for the worker that earned that money. You want to justify this because it is only .63. If you multiply that by all the shareholders and also take the saleries paid to CEO's and higher level employees it comes down to stealing from the worker.

    Consider this I will use baseball which you may better understand than I .The worker (the player) earns more than the manager. The combined incomes of the players and the coaches and the manager in most cases is higher than the income of the owner. How come there is still baseball?
    The flame that is between us could set every soul on fire. I would love to take that heat and let's fill the whole world with desire.
    Sophie B. Hawkins

  10. #70
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by katiegrrl0 View Post
    In a Communist society the company does not need the money of the blood sucking leach called a stockholder. The coampanies grow as the money that is profit is put toward expansion. There is no bloodsucker to take even .63 away for the worker that earned that money. You want to justify this because it is only .63. If you multiply that by all the shareholders and also take the saleries paid to CEO's and higher level employees it comes down to stealing from the worker.
    You can steal something you were never entitled to, a worker who agreed to work for a specific price, is not being exploited.

    Most share holders are institutional, like mutual funds, charities etc.
    They are mostly invested in by the little guys, aka workers.

    Quote Originally Posted by katiegrrl0 View Post
    Consider this I will use baseball which you may better understand than I .The worker (the player) earns more than the manager. The combined incomes of the players and the coaches and the manager in most cases is higher than the income of the owner. How come there is still baseball?
    Because that is what they all agreed to, it doesn't make it right or wrong.
    Just because they do this in baseball doesn't mean they should do it everywhere else.

    Workers have very little risk, while owners and shareholders have high amounts of risk.
    They get paid accordingly.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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