View Poll Results: Does communism cause most of the population to live in poverty?

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Thread: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

  1. #41
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Uh no. The Kibbituz system which did wonders for Israel was just a piece of their economy. There was strong economic social classes in Israel (as there are today). Furthermore, it was hardly a democracy of th worker. I'm not arguing that they didn't practice a kind of communal economic production method, but that alone does not make them Communism when they had other aspects to their economy.



    Eh. Humans are too greedy for it to work.
    Well, like I said, I haven't read much about it. But you seem quite the authority on the subject so I'll take your word for it

    One thing, for sure, is that I don't think that the form of Capitalism employed today works. All the wealth to a tiny, tiny percentage of the World/country. It's just wrong.

  2. #42
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    But that alone does not equate to Communism. You cannot have a single or a few rulers in Communism. That is totally against the writings of Marx much less the revolution by the worker. There are a few basic points a country must have to be Communism. And no country has even hit any of them aside from no exports to the West.
    Communism is a classless structure where the means of production are owned by all people involved.
    These things have been attempted to be implemented, resulting in abject failure.
    People do not respect the communal ownership.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    They can be.
    Are, the minority is always under the authority of the majority.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  3. #43
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by expandmymind View Post
    Well, like I said, I haven't read much about it. But you seem quite the authority on the subject so I'll take your word for it
    Eh. I wouldn't quite do that. I know a bit about it, but I'm hardly an authority. As I understand their system, early modern Israel (never mind the contridiction there) was spread out without a strong defense force. So Jewish settlers basically created little forts to protect their "colonies" and became rather self sufficent in the process. I don't think they started off thinking about communal nature, it was just that they were forced to initially do it due to the weakness within Israel's defense.

    One thing, for sure, is that I don't think that the form of Capitalism employed today works. All the wealth to a tiny, tiny percentage of the World/country. It's just wrong.
    Perhaps so, but it's a better allocation then Merchantilism.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Communism is a classless structure where the means of production are owned by all people involved.
    Which makes every Communist country not Communist.

    These things have been attempted to be implemented, resulting in abject failure.
    Where? All orders for production have come from the top. Mao's Great Leap Forward was a top order. Cuba's government dictates what is made. The Soviet Union dictated to its factory workers what to make. Aside from Israel Kibbituzs, that has never been tried. We haven't seen actual Communism at state level ever. They never even tried to do it right.

    This poll fails because it utilizes the worst definition of Communism available.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Eh. I wouldn't quite do that. I know a bit about it, but I'm hardly an authority. As I understand their system, early modern Israel (never mind the contridiction there) was spread out without a strong defense force. So Jewish settlers basically created little forts to protect their "colonies" and became rather self sufficent in the process. I don't think they started off thinking about communal nature, it was just that they were forced to initially do it due to the weakness within Israel's defense.
    I thought it was due to the large amount of Russian Jews who emmigrated there? Like I say, I know very little about it.

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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Which makes every Communist country not Communist.

    Where? All orders for production have come from the top. Mao's Great Leap Forward was a top order. Cuba's government dictates what is made. The Soviet Union dictated to its factory workers what to make. Aside from Israel Kibbituzs, that has never been tried. We haven't seen actual Communism at state level ever. They never even tried to do it right.

    This poll fails because it utilizes the worst definition of Communism available.
    The people supported the leaders.
    The choice was made democratically, otherwise the revolution would not have happened.

    On a state level, communism always fails.
    In micro localities, it can flourish with limited private ownership.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    The people supported the leaders.
    Where? There was always resistance to self proclaimed Communist leaders.

    The choice was made democratically, otherwise the revolution would not have happened.
    Actually it was made at gun point. The Russians fought a civil war over it. The Chinese fought a civil war over it. Cuban exiles attempted to overthrow Castro. I can keep going about how the people did not support the revolution, nor was it made democratically.

    On a state level, communism always fails.
    Dude. It's never been tried. Lenin was the closest to Marx and he never gave power to the masses. That's automatic failure to be considered Communism. Consolidation of power by the few with no voice to the Masses can never be called Communism.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  8. #48
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Where? There was always resistance to self proclaimed Communist leaders.
    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Actually it was made at gun point. The Russians fought a civil war over it. The Chinese fought a civil war over it. Cuban exiles attempted to overthrow Castro. I can keep going about how the people did not support the revolution, nor was it made democratically.
    True, that is why democracy is just as authoritarian as any other system.
    Another reason why Communism can never work because you will not have universal support.

    Democracy ≠ universal support.
    Democracy = we have more people, we make the rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Dude. It's never been tried. Lenin was the closest to Marx and he never gave power to the masses. That's automatic failure to be considered Communism. Consolidation of power by the few with no voice to the Masses can never be called Communism.
    Those who supported it, gave their consent.
    There will always be people who do not support it, so by your definition Communism can never exist.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    True, that is why democracy is just as authoritarian as any other system.
    Another reason why Communism can never work because you will not have universal support.
    Not really. Democracy shows just how many people don't support you. You're never going to get universal support. That's not a reason why Communism won't work. Communism won't work because it is diametrically opposed to the realities of human behavior. Communism requires altruistic beings who are content with what they have independent of the material riches of others. That ain't humans.

    Those who supported it, gave their consent.
    By that definition, democracies are Communism. See what I mean? We are using the absolute worst definition of Communism as it transitively makes every country who has tried something similar Communism. I have a hard time calling Switzerland Communist, but that's what we have to do if we run with this definition.

    There will always be people who do not support it, so by your definition Communism can never exist.
    Not in humans at least. Marx's idea while interesting, is not practical here.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  10. #50
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Not really. Democracy shows just how many people don't support you. You're never going to get universal support. That's not a reason why Communism won't work. Communism won't work because it is diametrically opposed to the realities of human behavior. Communism requires altruistic beings who are content with what they have independent of the material riches of others. That ain't humans.
    Agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    By that definition, democracies are Communism. See what I mean? We are using the absolute worst definition of Communism as it transitively makes every country who has tried something similar Communism. I have a hard time calling Switzerland Communist, but that's what we have to do if we run with this definition.
    The means of production still have to be communally owned, which in theory, they were through the democratic process of support.

    Democracy is one aspect, the other is communal ownership of the means of production.


    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Not in humans at least. Marx's idea while interesting, is not practical here.
    Agree.
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 09-25-10 at 06:21 PM.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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