View Poll Results: Does communism cause most of the population to live in poverty?

Voters
42. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, pretty much

    17 40.48%
  • Of course

    29 69.05%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 21 of 25 FirstFirst ... 111920212223 ... LastLast
Results 201 to 210 of 241

Thread: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

  1. #201
    Sporadic insanity normal.


    The Mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:16 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    19,752

    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    My point is that human consciousness develops in such a way based on the environment in which it exists. The idea that people would need to be "indoctrinated" implies that communist society is "unnatural" and therefore that people need to be tricked into "believing" it. So again we are back at the silly "human nature" argument.
    The way I see it, all societies require some form of "indoctrination" to continue existing. We teach everyone (in theory) some basic skills in our school system here in the US. Without those basic skills, our society would look far different. Is that a form of indoctrination?

    Personally, I'm not sure there IS a "natural" society. Or at the least, not one that has been discovered as of yet. On the other hand, the opposite could be the case, and all societies are "natural", at least in the sense that they were dreamed up by humans (so far as we know, that is).

    Who knows? It may be that I was "indoctrinated" during my formative years, leading me to this generalized dislike for communism and socialism, despite socialism's (or a form of it) current existence in US society.

    If that were the case, then my dislike is “unnatural”.

    And really, the training/indoctrination/etc. that takes place in the more formative years could be considered as part of “human nature”.

    Personally, I don’t think there is a “human nature” as such… Or rather, human nature varies widely depending on the events during those “formative years”.

    Still, you probably would agree that if you tried to implement a completely communistic society here in the USA tomorrow, many people would disagree, some violently, making it nearly impossible to emplace (unless US citizens are far more apathetic than I fear) without enforcement methods.

    Whether this stems from a “human nature” produced by ingrained and institutionalized indoctrinations against communism/socialism or some unfathomed “human nature” that is intrinsic to all humans, cannot really be determined, since any test I can think of would violate many of the moral codes that are…ingrained and institutionalized into our collective psyche.

    Nonetheless, it indicates that “human nature”, such as it exists here in the US of A, would resist an overall communist governing method – or however you want to describe it.

    IMO, it cannot be determined one way or the other whether any given societal system is “natural” or “unnatural”, seeing as the very system you are examining would either be that which you currently reside in, or one similar, counter to it, or both, in several ways.

    So, I would say all systems are “natural”...and at the same time, none are.

    Damn, I really typed a lot there…

    Meh.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  2. #202
    Sage
    Khayembii Communique's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Milwaukee, WI
    Last Seen
    12-15-17 @ 07:18 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    7,897

    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark
    Still, you probably would agree that if you tried to implement a completely communistic society here in the USA tomorrow, many people would disagree, some violently, making it nearly impossible to emplace (unless US citizens are far more apathetic than I fear) without enforcement methods.
    Well that's the thing. "I" am/"We" are not going to "try to implement" it. The point of Marxian theory is that the class struggle develops to such a point where the question of working class power is posed as a result. A socialist revolution is a popular revolution. One cannot "implement" a popular revolution; it is born out of the conditions of the time and the development of the course of history.

    Nonetheless, it indicates that “human nature”, such as it exists here in the US of A, would resist an overall communist governing method – or however you want to describe it.
    If it is "human nature, such as it exists in the USA" then it cannot be human nature as human nature is by definition the nature of all humans.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

  3. #203
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Last Seen
    07-07-16 @ 08:11 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    2,854

    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Considering the quality of your posts and your obvious arrogance, I don't see the point.
    If the quality is so bad, then it would be an easy task for you to refute my statement. But the fact is, I have used this argument against many communists, and not a single one has been able to explain how they would allocate jobs in a communist system where everyone earns depending on what they need and not what they produce. The best answer I have heard so far is job-sharing, which is extremly inefficient and won't work at all for highly qualified jobs.

    Another typical answer is "But there is not going to be any wages", however in reality there has to be some form of rationing. If not, then there will be a fight over the resources because some people are going to take more than they need. And if some people take more than they need, then the rest will also take more.

    I don't really think you are concerned about the quality, but more that you lack an answer.
    Last edited by Camlon; 10-12-10 at 02:15 AM.

  4. #204
    Sage
    Khayembii Communique's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Milwaukee, WI
    Last Seen
    12-15-17 @ 07:18 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    7,897

    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon
    If the quality is so bad, then it would be an easy task for you to refute my statement. But the fact is, I have used this argument against many communists, and not a single one has been able to explain how they would allocate jobs in a communist system where everyone earns depending on what they need and not what they produce. The best answer I have heard so far is job-sharing, which is extremly inefficient and won't work at all for highly qualified jobs.
    Ah but I have already responded to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    But we can't have a discussion on anything that will happen in the future outside of abstractions based on an investigation of the development of history. There is a reason that whenever Marx (or any other serious Marxist theoretician) spoke of a future communist society he always spoke in abstractions. He wasn't interested in painting a picture of how he thought it would work in a concrete way but rather made conclusions on its general development based on historical investigation.
    I don't really think you are concerned about the quality, but more that you lack an answer.
    No, I have responded to this question in the past. I just don't feel like wasting my time on you.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

  5. #205
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Last Seen
    07-07-16 @ 08:11 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    2,854

    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Ah but I have already responded to this:
    But we can't have a discussion on anything that will happen in the future outside of abstractions based on an investigation of the development of history. There is a reason that whenever Marx (or any other serious Marxist theoretician) spoke of a future communist society he always spoke in abstractions. He wasn't interested in painting a picture of how he thought it would work in a concrete way but rather made conclusions on its general development based on historical investigation.
    So why should we adopt a model, when you are not able to explain how it's going to work in the most simple terms?

    Think about this, you make a car that is driven by water power. Then someone ask, how are we going to make sure there is enough water in the tank. Your answer "But we can't have a discussion on anything that will happen in the future outside of abstractions" It's meaningless and it means you can't answer. If you can't answer how we are going to allocate jobs, then communism is not a good system.

  6. #206
    Educator
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Sacramento California
    Last Seen
    08-06-11 @ 02:18 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    706

    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    So why should we adopt a model, when you are not able to explain how it's going to work in the most simple terms?

    Think about this, you make a car that is driven by water power. Then someone ask, how are we going to make sure there is enough water in the tank. Your answer "But we can't have a discussion on anything that will happen in the future outside of abstractions" It's meaningless and it means you can't answer. If you can't answer how we are going to allocate jobs, then communism is not a good system.
    Communism is the classless society that will eventually result from the workers coming to power. It is impossible for one socialist to lay out a blueprint of exactly what this society will look like because it isn't up to one person, or a small group of people to build this future society. Your asking for a blueprint from one man may indicate that your thinking is too authoritarian to grasp the concept of communism.
    "We may have destroyed this country, but we got rich doing it!" --The GOP
    There is a special place in hell for those who care only about themselves.

  7. #207
    Sporadic insanity normal.


    The Mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:16 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    19,752

    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Well that's the thing. "I" am/"We" are not going to "try to implement" it. The point of Marxian theory is that the class struggle develops to such a point where the question of working class power is posed as a result. A socialist revolution is a popular revolution. One cannot "implement" a popular revolution; it is born out of the conditions of the time and the development of the course of history.
    Spontaneous revolution on an individual level?
    No on leading anyone else? The leading is what I was referring to when I used the term "implement"…

    I don’t see anything of that nature happening in the US anytime soon…

    But then again, I could be wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    If it is "human nature, such as it exists in the USA" then it cannot be human nature as human nature is by definition the nature of all humans.
    Thus the “such as it exists here in the US of A” – I was referring specifically to the flavor of “human nature” we have in the US currently.

    For that matter, I personally think that if anything is “human nature”, unpredictability is the one word that might best define it.

    No one “human nature” exists, but rather, the very variances in so-called “human natures” are the true “human nature”…
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  8. #208
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Last Seen
    07-07-16 @ 08:11 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    2,854

    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    Communism is the classless society that will eventually result from the workers coming to power. It is impossible for one socialist to lay out a blueprint of exactly what this society will look like because it isn't up to one person, or a small group of people to build this future society. Your asking for a blueprint from one man may indicate that your thinking is too authoritarian to grasp the concept of communism.
    They don't need to present excactly how it will look like. However they should be able to explain broadly how it works. Similiar for the car example above, you should be able to explain how it will get enough water.

    Your argument that they don't know how jobs can be allocated in communism, because it's not up to them how it will look like, makes no sense. I'm not asking them to tell me how it will look like in a specific future communist society. I'm asking them to come up with a way to allocate jobs in a communist society.

    I see that allocation of jobs is going to be a major problem in the pure form of non-oppressive communism, because you can't use wages to allocate jobs. I ask communists, then how are they going to allocate jobs. If no can explain to me how jobs are going to be allocated in communism, then no wonder why communism fails every single time and turn into horrible poor totalitarian socities. Allocating jobs is crucial in any economy, and it shouldn't be a problem to explain how jobs can be allocated.
    Last edited by Camlon; 10-14-10 at 08:21 AM.

  9. #209
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    In your dreams...
    Last Seen
    05-29-12 @ 02:53 PM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    10,621

    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
    Your argument that they don't know how jobs can be allocated in communism, because it's not up to them how it will look like, makes no sense. I'm not asking them to tell me how it will look like in a specific future communist society. I'm asking them to come up with a way to allocate jobs in a communist society.
    You're not asking what you're asking for you're just asking what your asking for?

  10. #210
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    London, England and Dijon, France
    Last Seen
    03-06-11 @ 01:40 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    598

    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Why do you make polls that require people to answer the question favourably to your own view?

    If you want actual discussion on the pros and cons of socialism and communism, you're certainly going about this the wrong way.

    If you want to make an idiotic and pointless statement about your lack of willingness to hear debate on the subject, then you're certainly going about this the right way.

Page 21 of 25 FirstFirst ... 111920212223 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •