View Poll Results: Does communism cause most of the population to live in poverty?

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Thread: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

  1. #171
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    funny how the anti communist rigged poll nearly reflects the 'democratic posers' of most communist parties

  2. #172
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    I can't believe I wasted a few minutes of my time reading through the trash posted in the last few pages of the thread. "Communism is utopian" is not an argument. Neither is "it goes against human nature". You people aren't even making arguments.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    I can't believe I wasted a few minutes of my time reading through the trash posted in the last few pages of the thread. "Communism is utopian" is not an argument. Neither is "it goes against human nature". You people aren't even making arguments.
    Well, it may be that I am incorrect, but I truly think that the variances in human nature prevent Communism from ever becoming the dominate political structure in the world – or even a large minority of it.. It could be that my definition of communism is too broad, including some forms you might not agree with, which might invalidate this theory.

    As too the “Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?” question, I think it depends on the form of communism in question.

    Personally, I don’t like the idea of communism (although I’ve never made a detailed study of it so my understanding may be wrong) because it seems to downplay competition and individual achievements.
    Education.

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  4. #174
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102

    Never, really, allocation of goods and addressing product demand with control has never been achieved. I like Khayembii's analogy of the lightbulb having been an idea before it was achieved. If it works its good. Countries such as Russia had no chance in engineering an economy top down. Except the economy of miltiary defense.
    The failure of the Soviet planned economy was due to two main reasons: the planning apparatus being implemented by a state bureaucracy isolated from the people as a whole, effectively isolating demand from supply; and the fact that the economy was subject to a declassed bureaucracy and thus subject to the blind and contradictory whims of the bureaucrats as a whole as well as the antagonisms between various sections of the bureaucracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark
    Well, it may be that I am incorrect, but I truly think that the variances in human nature prevent Communism from ever becoming the dominate political structure in the world – or even a large minority of it.
    And I would argue that the idea of your "human nature" is absurd and therefore this isn't an argument. But thanks for making a coherent post; this thread needed reviving.
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 10-09-10 at 09:20 PM.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    And I would argue that the idea of a "human nature" is absurd and therefore this isn't an argument.
    Hmm.

    Why would you argue so?

    I'm thinking of "human nature" in terms of the decisions and choices humans make during their lifetimes.

    The variances seem great, and unless my understanding as to the definition of communism is completely incorrect, some of those choices/decisions would seem to cause issues in a communist governing system.
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  6. #176
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark

    Why would you argue so?

    I'm thinking of "human nature" in terms of the decisions and choices humans make during their lifetimes.
    I think the human nature argument is absurd because it asserts that humans are "naturally greedy" without putting forward any evidence. Moreover, the converse can be proven true by examples of people that have sacrificed their lives for others. Proponents of the human nature argument would then say that they sacrificed their life because it was in their own interests to feel good about saving someone or some such bull****, at which point the human nature argument itself becomes completely meaningless.

    It disproves itself.

    Moreover, the idea that "people will naturally rise to the top" is absurd given that there would be no means to do so.

    The variances seem great, and unless my understanding as to the definition of communism is completely incorrect, some of those choices/decisions would seem to cause issues in a communist governing system.
    Considering the fact that we don't even know what a "communist governing system" would look like I don't think it would be very productive for either of us to make any assertions regarding its pitfalls.
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 10-09-10 at 09:26 PM.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    I think the human nature argument is absurd because it asserts that humans are "naturally greedy" without putting forward any evidence. Moreover, the converse can be proven true by examples of people that have sacrificed their lives for others. Proponents of the human nature argument would then say that they sacrificed their life because it was in their own interests to feel good about saving someone or some such bull****, at which point the human nature argument itself becomes completely meaningless.

    It disproves itself.

    Moreover, the idea that "people will naturally rise to the top" is absurd given that there would be no means to do so.
    I was arguing neither of those things.

    Simply that, in any given group of humans, it seems likely that some percentage will be greedy bastards, some percentage will be murdering psychopaths, and some percentage will be selfless, kind-hearted souls. Among other labels, and the like…

    My understanding of the idea of communism is that, basically, whatever it is that everyone in the group collectively produces is divided up equally among the group, with allowances for specific needs and the like.

    Assuming that is correct, it would seem likely that some people are not going to fit that framework very well, since (as far as I am aware)humans do not respond in exactly the same way to a given stimuli.

    That’s the “human nature” I was referring to.

    But perhaps I have something wrong in there…

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Considering the fact that we don't even know what a "communist governing system" would look like I don't think it would be very productive for either of us to make any assertions regarding its pitfalls.
    So, what is your argument here? That this poll is pointless, and all the arguments are things people pulled out of their ass? We're all groping blindly and running into each other?
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  8. #178
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    Those things exist in human society regardless of what system of government you choose.

    Sure some countries have it less then others.

    There's A LOT of poverty in America, a lot of alcoholism.

    Less poverty in Canada i'd say, but a decent amount of alcoholism given our population size. Especially in Rural Areas, and unfortunately in Native Reserves.

    I'm not pro communist or pro capitalist. I believe a balance in the middle is the only solution. It's been proven free enterprise on its own cannot solve every problem. And government on it's own can be too wasteful. A mixed economy seems to be a better outcome for most people.
    Communism forces the vast majority to live in poverty. All you have to do is visit a former commi country; the destruction of a half century of it still exist all over the place.

    You haven't seen alcoholism until you've visited a former Commi Country. It's all they had as an outlet... drink. And that poison will take decades to gut from their social fabric.

    As for a mixed economy... when you mix turds (socialism/communism) with raisins (capitalism)... you end up eating turds.

    Swedish economists did a study, and if the EU were a US State, the citizens of the best EU countries have a standard of living equal to the BOTTOM 5 US States.
    http://www.timbro.se/bokhandel/pdf/9175665646.pdf

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  9. #179
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Considering the fact that we don't even know what a "communist governing system" would look like I don't think it would be very productive for either of us to make any assertions regarding its pitfalls.
    Your brand of communism is strictly intellectual and abstract. In practice, communist governance is an abject and utter failure.

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Communism forces the vast majority to live in poverty. All you have to do is visit a former commi country; the destruction of a half century of it still exist all over the place.
    Indeed. I have been to numerous nations that had suffered under the communist yoke. The dreary communist imprimatur still casts its shadow in these places... a full twenty years after liberation.

    אשכנזי היהודי • Белый Россию

  10. #180
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    I think the human nature argument is absurd because it asserts that humans are "naturally greedy" without putting forward any evidence. Moreover, the converse can be proven true by examples of people that have sacrificed their lives for others. Proponents of the human nature argument would then say that they sacrificed their life because it was in their own interests to feel good about saving someone or some such bull****, at which point the human nature argument itself becomes completely meaningless.

    It disproves itself.

    Moreover, the idea that "people will naturally rise to the top" is absurd given that there would be no means to do so.



    Considering the fact that we don't even know what a "communist governing system" would look like I don't think it would be very productive for either of us to make any assertions regarding its pitfalls.
    communism is a disease that power hungry plotters co-opt from pillow headed idealists to convince the underachievers that they will be better off if they give the plotters complete and utter control



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