View Poll Results: Does communism cause most of the population to live in poverty?

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Thread: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

  1. #131
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Greed: all other things being equal, people would rather not work than work.
    >>

    That's a lie the people who hate homeless people are pushing, and it makes no sense. Fact is, being irrelevant is the worst fate man or woman can live with, and irrelevance is what you're blindly accusing those people of, especially when you know zero about their circumstances.

    ricksfolly

  2. #132
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    It works for every country at first, but then corruption and greed takes over.

    The success of smaller versions, like the Amish and other self contained communities here in the US and Canada, prove that it does work, so let's not give up on it entirely.

    ricksfolly
    The Amish are not communist.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  3. #133
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    I'm talking garden variety, theory-into-practice socialism. It's pretty much the only kind that exists on a large scale.
    Like China, Vietnam, Cuba, Bangladesh, Egypt, North Korea, Libya, Syria, Sri Lanka, Bolivia, Venezuela... the ones that actually have it written into their constitution?

    Or garden variety Norway, Sweden?

    I'm not talking utopian or pseudo-socialist beliefs, or things that people wish for but can never happen such as democratic socialism or anarcho-syndicalism.
    What about the ANC? Democratic socialist parties exist all over the world and influence policy.

    All socialism is authoritarian.
    Just the opposite, the majority of countries that have some form of socialism aren't authoritarian at all.

    All socialism requires an oppressive centralized government to rule through fear and intimidation.
    Again, your limited understanding of the term 'socialism' makes discussion difficult.

    Also, when you view other cultures with western eyes, they might seem 'fearful' and 'intimidating', even backwards. But from their POV, all our freedoms come at a price.

    The only thing that differs from country to country is the wealth distribution, exact levels of corruption, and levels of minimal control at the popular level.
    Um... that's three things. And, no, those aren't the only differences. Cuba is different than China and both are way different than Sweden. But all three practice some form of socialism.

    Nice try on the ad homs though. How unfortunate for you that they're inapplicable here.
    How did I attack your character? Perhaps you don't know what ad hom means either.

  4. #134
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Well, can the anti-capitalists agree that communism causes poverty, dispair and drunkeness? The rest of you can speak up too.
    It causes more poverty among a larger segment of the population than any other system.

    Capitalism causes no poverty some simply become or remain impovershed under capitalism, thesystem does not dictate that they remain so.

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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by katiegrrl0 View Post
    The poverty in the USA is just as poor as anywhere in the world. Poor is Poor and all the defaults on mortgages say that this is so.
    You don't get out much, do you?

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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    You know - I feel I can't comment on communism because I've never lived it. I've never deeply examined it. And our culture shuns it fully with an almost brainwashed 'it's bad' baseline.
    I'll tell you why I start with that baseline. In a commune, people who bust ass don't have anything more than people who sit on their ass. Since this complete lack of justice destroys the community, they have to outlaw sitting on ass. So, rather than people working to better their situation (because their situation will never be any better), they work out of fear.

    Pretty simplistic, I know, but that's the way I see it.

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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by katiegrrl0 View Post
    Why do you think the income would be low. It could be low as there would be no house payments and no utilities and the taxes would be taken before you ever saw any money.There would be no medical expenses or school costs. If you took all of that out of the mix how much would you need to make?
    I expect to see this when I die. It's called heaven. Until then, who do you think will build your house for you and expect nothing in return?

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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by katiegrrl0 View Post
    There would be people as there is in the US to run the business, I didn't say that there would not be a management in the business. Of course there would. They would be employees like everyone else. There are people that are trained in University to run business...
    If the managers are employees just like everyone else and have the same income just like everyone else, who in their right mind would take on the added responsibility of management?

  9. #139
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    Yes so in order for any communist rule to take place, if would have to put some of the working class to the sword.
    In order for any rule to take place violence or the threat of violence must occur. In a revolutionary period the nascent state must practice violence in order to centralize its rule and to legitimize its position. This applies to the consolidation of a proletarian state apparatus against hostile elements.

    .
    Breathing underwater ≠ economic pluralism.
    That should be apparent as one is currently impossible, while the other has already existed.
    Not to any relevant extent.

    But they aren't irrelevant, the many 50 states have varying degrees of regulation.
    Some with very little, others with a lot.
    So we know at least part of it is true.
    This is an absolutely terrible example. All 50 states operate in a capitalist society. This argument doesn't even make sense.

    Communes quite frequently operate outside the laws of the nation they were created in.
    When I said "laws of the system" I was referring to the laws of motion of the socio-economic system (laws of capitalism, for example), not state law. Sorry for the confusion.

    The Petrograd Soviet was a democratically elected political group, that essentially captured the Soviet Republic, from the other political parties.
    The Petrograd Soviet wasn't a political party.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

  10. #140
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Well, can the anti-capitalists agree that communism causes poverty, despair and drunkenness? The rest of you can speak up too.
    I don't think I’m an "anti-capitalist".

    More like I'm reserving judgment, not having enough information to know one way or another.
    I do lean towards support for some form of what, in my mind, constitutes capitalism.

    That said, I think that what is viewed by most people (at least most of those I’ve been in contact with) as “communism” (read: USSR) does…well, not necessarily force people into poverty (although in some cases, it probably does/has), but seemingly work to prevent them from leaving it, if they start in such a situation or fall into it.

    Seeing as, for most people I’ve been in contact with, the USSR is the “shining example” (irony intended) of communism in their minds, not to mention a subtle (in some cases overt) aversion to all things “commie” that is seemingly somehow ingrained into the collective psyche of the USA…

    But as I’ve encountered a few people (mainly on this forum) who laid out a good case (too me at least) for not considering the USSR (and like situations) an accurate example of communism, I don’t know if any conclusions drawn from its history are completely accurate. They probably have SOME relevancy, however.

    So, in a word… “Dunno”

    Personally, I don’t think the idealistic version of “communism” is possible, given the vast variances in human nature.

    At least, assuming the membership in such a society is voluntary.

    Even so, forcing people into an artificial framework never works out well.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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