View Poll Results: Does communism cause most of the population to live in poverty?

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Thread: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

  1. #91
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by katiegrrl0 View Post
    What would lead you to believe that a Communist nation would be in a constant state of status. It has been pointed out wrongly that Russia is Communist. If lets say for the sake of arguement that it was. Why do they still have a functional space program. How is it this that this nation gets on better with the rest of the world than the US does. Hmmmmm Oh yes and the other non Communist nation that is always pointed out is China if again for the sake of your arguement were actually Communist why do they own so much of the great Capitalist giant US's debt. These nations seem to be doing pretty well. But of course they aren't really Communist.
    Russia focused its efforts in competing, in some areas, with the U.S.
    Competing sounds a lot like a precursor to capitalism.
    Let us not forget about the general shortages of consumer basics though.
    Production was still organized in a commune type fashion.

    China dropped the whole commune nonsense and embraced market based principles.
    Before hand their commune ideas killed millions of people.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  2. #92
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    Khayembii Communique's Avatar
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez
    Why is this debate still even being had? Communism was refuted nearly a century ago.
    "Communism" can't be "refuted" because it's such a general term that it's essentially meaningless. You have to be more specific than that.

    Let us not forget about the general shortages of consumer basics though.
    Production was still organized in a commune type fashion.
    Actually most production was organized in a very centralized fashion through the bureaucratic state apparatus. Shortages were due to the bureaucratic state apparatus being unable/unwilling to carry out the demands of the people as a whole. In order for socialist production relations to actually work the means of production have to be not simply nationalized but socialized. There can be no bureaucratic disconnect between producers and consumers. This is also why the USSR is a supremely silly example to use as the "failure" of "communism".
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 09-28-10 at 01:50 AM.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

  3. #93
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Russia focused its efforts in competing, in some areas, with the U.S.
    Competing sounds a lot like a precursor to capitalism.
    Let us not forget about the general shortages of consumer basics though.
    Production was still organized in a commune type fashion.

    China dropped the whole commune nonsense and embraced market based principles.
    Before hand their commune ideas killed millions of people.
    They were never Communist in the first place. I am just trying to figure out how they are doing better than the US. Russia was under an iron fist for decades and when Gorbachev fell out of power the nation went through great turmoil losing the satellite nations. The economy fell apart. The money was worthless. This goes back only a few decades. Yet here they are competing with the US in high levels and many of the industries in Russia are public and not privately owned by investors that rape the worker from the profits. How is it that Russia keeps up. Why does China own most of your debt. You have stood behind the idea that these were Communist nations. Were they that good?

    Next time you need a ride to the space station give the Russians a call maybe they will give you a ride.
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  4. #94
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Actually most production was organized in a very centralized fashion through the bureaucratic state apparatus. Shortages were due to the bureaucratic state apparatus being unable/unwilling to carry out the demands of the people as a whole. In order for socialist production relations to actually work the means of production have to be not simply nationalized but socialized. There can be no bureaucratic disconnect between producers and consumers. This is also why the USSR is a supremely silly example to use as the "failure" of "communism".
    It's an example of failure because the decentralization of the system won't happen.

    In order for a communist society to exist, it must be done with force.
    A great many people will resist it, with violence.
    A centralized authority must be established to wrestle that control.
    Of course, they won't return it to the people.

    I think there are some great ideas within communism but the system, as a whole, is impractical.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Good to see you run away back to your meaningless abstractions the second I bring up specifics to call into question your ridiculous logic. Shows that you have no idea what you're talking about. Good show.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

  6. #96
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by katiegrrl0 View Post
    They were never Communist in the first place. I am just trying to figure out how they are doing better than the US. Russia was under an iron fist for decades and when Gorbachev fell out of power the nation went through great turmoil losing the satellite nations. The economy fell apart. The money was worthless. This goes back only a few decades. Yet here they are competing with the US in high levels and many of the industries in Russia are public and not privately owned by investors that rape the worker from the profits. How is it that Russia keeps up. Why does China own most of your debt. You have stood behind the idea that these were Communist nations. Were they that good?

    Next time you need a ride to the space station give the Russians a call maybe they will give you a ride.
    Erm, Russia has a **** ton of people in real poverty.
    Nothing compared to here.
    If that is how they are "keeping up", they can keep "winning."

    China owns most of our debt because we borrowed money from them.
    China has abandoned the communist economic model because they realize, that it is a failure.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Good to see you run away back to your meaningless abstractions the second I bring up specifics to call into question your ridiculous logic. Shows that you have no idea what you're talking about. Good show.
    It is an observable fact.
    You can not force all people to accept communism, that is why there was a fight between the whites and the reds.

    Unfortunately, the power was never returned to the people.
    That is the attempt of communism in reality.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by katiegrrl0 View Post
    Name the country you intend to look at. I can't find one to use an example.
    I want to be clear.
    Do you need me to name of communist country where the leaders vacuum the wealth of the nation from the masses who are poor?
    'The whole universe is going to die!'

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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    It is an observable fact.
    And it was an "observable fact" before the light bulb was successfully invented that it was impossible to create. All of those people tried, and they failed. That's an "observable fact".

    And my point with this example isn't "try enough times and you'll get it" but rather the failure was due to the concrete expressions of "light bulb" and its design failures and not due to a flaw in the concept of "light bulb" itself. This is why your argument is silly. Each "socialist revolution" must be taken in its concrete historical surroundings and evaluated as such before one can abstract out to make the claims that you have made. Yet when one attempts to probe your abstraction by examining its concrete expressions from which it was deducted you simply resort back to further abstractions a priori.

    You claim to base your assertions in empirical evidence yet flee from the first attempt at empirical analysis.

    You can not force all people to accept communism, that is why there was a fight between the whites and the reds.
    No it wasn't.
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 09-28-10 at 02:13 AM.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

  10. #100
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    Re: Does communism force a portion of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    And it was an "observable fact" before the light bulb was successfully invented that it was impossible to create. All of those people tried, and they failed. That's an "observable fact".

    And my point with this example isn't "try enough times and you'll get it" but rather the failure was due to the concrete expressions of "light bulb" and its design failures and not due to a flaw in the concept of "light bulb" itself. This is why your argument is silly. Each "socialist revolution" must be taken in its concrete historical surroundings and evaluated as such before one can abstract out to make the claims that you have made. Yet when one attempts to probe your abstraction by examining its concrete expressions from which it was deducted you simply resort back to further abstractions a priori.

    You claim to base your assertions in empirical evidence yet flee from the first attempt at empirical analysis.
    The Petrograd Soviet was a democratically elected council, they gave the power to the higher members to topple the provisional government, after which the power continued to be concentrated in the hands of the authorities.

    There are examples of realistic communism but on a national level it degrades autocratic rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    No it wasn't.
    Point still stands, it took an act of force to create the government.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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