View Poll Results: Does capitalism force a percentage of a countries population into poverty?>

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Thread: Does Capitalism force a percentage of the population to live in poverty?

  1. #71
    Educator Gabriel's Avatar
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    Re: Does Capitalism force a percentage of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    You seem to be confusing "capitalism" with "the employer." The employer, of course, seeks to pay as little as possible. The employee on the other hand seeks to be paid as much as possible. Both are part of a larger system, which seeks a rational wage based on supply and demand.
    The supply and demand aspect is most certainly the drive behind a lower min wage or no min wage. What is the cardinal rule of the market/capitalism? Supply and demand. Now I don't know how much more simple that can be put without it becoming insulting.

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    Re: Does Capitalism force a percentage of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    The supply and demand aspect is most certainly the drive behind a lower min wage or no min wage. What is the cardinal rule of the market/capitalism? Supply and demand. Now I don't know how much more simple that can be put without it becoming insulting.
    It's too simple already. You're overlooking whole other aspects of the capitalist economy, like innovation and increased productivity, that tend to move wages upward.

  3. #73
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    Re: Does Capitalism force a percentage of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    And yet that has nothing to do with what is being discussed. Please step out of your capitalist cheer leading clothes for ONE SECOND and realize what is being asked. Does free trade force a percentage of the population to live in poverty? Being paid $20 a month does not mean you get out of poverty. It means you get just enough to feed yourself. Nothing else. And that is by 'conservative' standards of what you'd need to feed yourself in impoverished countries. Which is about $1 a day but lets say he makes $30 instead of $20. Now what does working just so you can feed yourself mean to you? It means you are stuck in a cycle of trying to accumulate just enough wealth to survive. Thus my argument that capitalism does force some people to stay poor. Obviously if you only make enough money through the day to eat, you're not going to want to go to school or get a higher certification because you simply don't have the time. That is what is being argued here.



    That is so ridiculous it's not even funny. The formula is very simple: higher level of education gives one more opportunities and thus more money.







    Now, you're welcome to bring up every single exception you believe disproves this rule but would you say that on average a person with a bachelors degree is very likely to have less money than some high school drop out? I highly doubt that. I think the guy with a bachelors is going to have more money 9 times out of 10.
    The even stronger correlation is the level of mathematical literacy. The majority of graduate study revolves around higher mathematics.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  4. #74
    Educator Gabriel's Avatar
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    Re: Does Capitalism force a percentage of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    It's too simple already. You're overlooking whole other aspects of the capitalist economy, like innovation and increased productivity, that tend to move wages upward.
    Innovation = productivity.. however the labour market in the US has changed dramatically. Clearly manufacturing is being wiped out and replaced with low paying service industry work that is labour intensive. These businesses have huge issues with innovation and have low productivity. It is the largest growth sector because the banks are bankrolling it. Efficiency has limits which stifles wage increases and makes cost static.

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    Re: Does Capitalism force a percentage of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Innovation = productivity.. however the labour market in the US has changed dramatically. Clearly manufacturing is being wiped out and replaced with low paying service industry work that is labour intensive. These businesses have huge issues with innovation and have low productivity. It is the largest growth sector because the banks are bankrolling it. Efficiency has limits which stifles wage increases and makes cost static.
    Because we're relying on slave labor for our manufacturing, as we discussed earlier.

  6. #76
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    Re: Does Capitalism force a percentage of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    Because we're relying on slave labor for our manufacturing, as we discussed earlier.
    Well yes exactly.

    EDIT: But to make matters worse on that front. America is being locked out of manufacturing because of the law of supply and demand. Now to be cost effective you have to have low wages to compete with the slave labour in China's manufacturing industry. Consequently it produces very few jobs in the US because of extreme innovation/mechanisation which has a high start up cost. It's ether do that or.. work for the same wage as the slaves in third world countries.
    Last edited by Gabriel; 09-25-10 at 11:40 AM.

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    Re: Does Capitalism force a percentage of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    The problem with this idea is that the market will always price some jobs cheaply, thereby forcing someone to be poor (even if we all had MIT quality educations and were highly motivated, someone has to take out the trash). While your statement works fairly well when talking to individuals, it does not work when you look at the system as a whole.
    The assessment of everyone being educated is right.
    If capitalism only produced jobs and it did not lower the cost of living, keeping people in poverty might be true.

    For the notion that "capitalism creates poverty" to be true, you're going to have to show that prior to or in absence of capitalism, these people would not be impoverished.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Does Capitalism force a percentage of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Well yes exactly.
    Which is not capitalism.

    Look, I understand that supply and demand is the cardinal rule. If you wanted to think like one of those libertarian fundamentalists, you might even think it's the only rule. Certainly you'll hear many right-wingers talking as if "capitalism" is just a convenient shorthand for the interests of big business. But in a broader historical view, there's a lot more to it than that. A capitalistic society is, first, a society. That means everyone plays by the same rules. In a capitalist society, those rules form a coherent policy that encourages economic activism, not stagnation. A corporation, in a so-called free market, that makes its money exploiting workers on a completely uneven field doesn't qualify as any kind of society, much less a capitalist one...no matter what Karl Marx or Dick Cheney may tell you.

  9. #79
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    Re: Does Capitalism force a percentage of the population to live in poverty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    The assessment of everyone being educated is right.
    If capitalism only produced jobs and it did not lower the cost of living, keeping people in poverty might be true.

    For the notion that "capitalism creates poverty" to be true, you're going to have to show that prior to or in absence of capitalism, these people would not be impoverished.
    every system creates poverty from the lack of a system (olden times) to every thing we have tried. Capitalism creates less poverty, but it still creates some. The inversion does not have to be shown for the premise to be true.

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    Re: Does Capitalism force a percentage of the population to live in poverty?

    I would argue capitalism is the best system to bring people out of poverty. As for whether or not a certain % must live in poverty, I think that no one is forced to live in poverty, but there are people in a capitalist society who live in "poverty". Of course, we cannot list the U.S. as an example of capitalism at work since we are not a purely capitalist society.
    Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

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