View Poll Results: What has Damaged America the Most?

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  • Federal Reserve

    31 28.70%
  • 2 Party System

    41 37.96%
  • Political Spin Doctors

    34 31.48%
  • Illuminaties Plans

    2 1.85%
  • Corporate Elite

    42 38.89%
  • Government Corruption

    55 50.93%
  • Tax-paid Unions

    26 24.07%
  • Welfare & Gov't Dependants

    36 33.33%
  • Hawks / US Pro-War

    39 36.11%
  • Religious

    23 21.30%
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Thread: What has Damaged America the Most?

  1. #151
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    Re: What has Damaged America the Most?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    No, it doesnt. In fact, it doesnt address the issue in any way.
    Let me clarify, then.

    "Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it causes every other. War is the cause of armies; from these are caused debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. War, too, causes the discretionary power of the Executive to be extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments to be multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, to be added to those of subduing the force, of the people. The same malignant aspect in republicanism causes the inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and the degeneracy of manners and of morals engendered by both. No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare."


    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    Show that "war is always evil".
    It's destructive rather than productive, and doubly so because of its large opportunity cost. It's inherently inimical to democratic society for the reasons Madison pointed out. The royal executive that "conservatives" worship in wartime is the same one that extends government power through taxes and bureaucracy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    This doesnt do anything to negate what I said.
    It directly negates it, unless you think fascism is compatible with liberty.

  2. #152
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    Re: What has Damaged America the Most?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    "Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it causes every other.
    This discussed the the threat pulic liberty, not 'damage" to the coutnry.
    It also does not exclude or preclude other causes to that threat. As such, war cannot be singled out, as you have done. To wit:
    War is the cause of armies; from these are caused debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few
    What -else- might cause taxes and debts, and might cause them to a greater degree?
    Surely, you need no prompt to answer this, as there are numerous examples.

    War, too, causes the discretionary power of the Executive to be extended...
    And that of those other causes of debts and taxes? These are outside of any discretion, immune from question and oversight. The power there is far more insidious. As such, war cannot be singled out, as you have done.

    So, you have yet to support the idea that war is -the- cause of all the 'damage' done to the country.

    It's destructive rather than productive, and doubly so because of its large opportunity cost.
    This is your defintion of evil? Remarkable, overtly secular - and impossibly self-serving.

    Aside from your questionable standard...
    War, while certainly ofetn quite destructive, often creates opportunity for production, and is often productive in and of itself. To argue that war cannot have a productive component -- that is, a benefit to society -- simply denies the truth of history.

    It's inherently inimical to democratic society for the reasons Madison pointed out.
    Not always.

    It directly negates it...
    Obviusly not.

  3. #153
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    Re: What has Damaged America the Most?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    This discussed the the threat pulic liberty, not 'damage" to the coutnry.
    Liberty is our foundation. What harms liberty harms the country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    It also does not exclude or preclude other causes to that threat. As such, war cannot be singled out, as you have done.

    To wit:

    What -else- might cause taxes and debts, and might cause them to a greater degree?
    Surely, you need no prompt to answer this, as there are numerous examples.


    And that of those other causes of debts and taxes? These are outside of any discretion, immune from question and oversight. The power there is far more insidious. As such, war cannot be singled out, as you have done.

    So, you have yet to support the idea that war is -the- cause of all the 'damage' done to the country.
    Well, that's a different point, isn't it? If you disagree with Madison and the other Founders who thought war was harmful, you should just say so.

    Yes, there are other causes, but if you trace them back far enough you will almost always find war at the root. What was the purpose of the first large-scale federal welfare program? The first income tax? How did Roosevelt increase his power and create legitimacy for the New Deal? How do Bush and Obama claim the dictatorial right to detain American citizens without trial? It all goes back to war and the desperation it fosters.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    This is your defintion of evil? Remarkable, overtly secular - and impossibly self-serving.
    I simply mean that it's an evil, not the whole definition of evil and certainly not to the exclusion of religious definitions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    Aside from your questionable standard...
    War, while certainly ofetn quite destructive, often creates opportunity for production, and is often productive in and of itself. To argue that war cannot have a productive component -- that is, a benefit to society -- simply denies the truth of history.
    Congratulations on out-Keynesing the Keynesians. A conservative advocating the Broken Window Fallacy is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. War makes socialists of us all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    Not always.
    And why is that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman
    Obviusly not.
    The assertion that a society is tending to fascism doesn't negate the assertion that it's preserving its freedom? Okay, have it your way. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

  4. #154
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    Re: What has Damaged America the Most?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    Liberty is our foundation. What harms liberty harms the country.
    Yes... but that's not the ONLY harm our country can experience, and war is not the ONLY way liberty can be harmed.

    Well, that's a different point, isn't it?
    Which IS the point. You're arguing that war is the be-all end-all cause of harm to this country, based on its affect on taxes/debt and the dangerouns consolidation of power. There are other things that create these conditions, to an extent greater than war, and as such, illustrate that war is not that be-all end-all cause of harm. This, alone, negates your position.

    Yes, there are other causes, but if you trace them back far enough you will almost always find war at the root.
    The welfare state does not have war at its root. This isnt even a good try on your part.

    I simply mean that it's an evil, not the whole definition of evil and certainly not to the exclusion of religious definitions.
    You said that "war is always evil", and then backed that statement with the idea that "It's destructive rather than productive, and doubly so because of its large opportunity cost". This is flalse; significant progress in any number of useful, even essential, areas stem from war, bith directly and indirectly. This illustrates a "productive" side of war, as war prodiced these things, and thus negates your argument that war is "always evil".

    Congratulations on out-Keynesing the Keynesians.
    This has absolutely no relationship to what I said. Nice try, tho.

    And why is that?
    In many cases - examples of which you should be very familiar with - democtratic processes were not possible until the result of war bought the conditions that allowed such a society to exist.

    The assertion that a society is tending to fascism doesn't negate the assertion that it's preserving its freedom?
    It MIGHT... if it were true. Its not true.

  5. #155
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    Re: What has Damaged America the Most?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Yes... but that's not the ONLY harm our country can experience, and war is not the ONLY way liberty can be harmed.


    Which IS the point. You're arguing that war is the be-all end-all cause of harm to this country, based on its affect on taxes/debt and the dangerouns consolidation of power. There are other things that create these conditions, to an extent greater than war, and as such, illustrate that war is not that be-all end-all cause of harm. This, alone, negates your position.


    The welfare state does not have war at its root. This isnt even a good try on your part.


    You said that "war is always evil", and then backed that statement with the idea that "It's destructive rather than productive, and doubly so because of its large opportunity cost". This is flalse; significant progress in any number of useful, even essential, areas stem from war, bith directly and indirectly. This illustrates a "productive" side of war, as war prodiced these things, and thus negates your argument that war is "always evil".


    This has absolutely no relationship to what I said. Nice try, tho.


    In many cases - examples of which you should be very familiar with - democtratic processes were not possible until the result of war bought the conditions that allowed such a society to exist.


    It MIGHT... if it were true. Its not true.
    You're wasting my time and failing to counter the substance of my points. You'll have to carry on without me, sorry.

  6. #156
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    Re: What has Damaged America the Most?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    You're wasting my time and failing to counter the substance of my points.

    As you run, make sure to tuck that tail nice and tight.

  7. #157
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    Re: What has Damaged America the Most?

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    Strange conservative-tea party reasoning.
    Are you kidding? When a bank actively loans money to corporations because they are "too big to fail," how can that be construed as something other than corporatism?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  8. #158
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    Re: What has Damaged America the Most?

    "What has Damaged America the Most?"

    Incorrect assignment of responsibility.

    Edit: As defined by me, of course.
    Last edited by The Mark; 09-23-10 at 04:52 PM.
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  9. #159
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    Re: What has Damaged America the Most?

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Take your first definition of fascism and add : "and involves the merger of government and corporate power".

    The bank bailout IS fascism, Obama's handling of the auto industry is fascism, letting insurance companies WRITE the health care bill is fascism, etc

    Also, JUST BECAUSE Obama was elected and has the 'velvet glove' doesn't make him ANY less of a dictator... rather then the executor he's supposed to be... and when they kick him out in 2012 or 2016, then a new guy will come in and act as dictator...so, the dictatorship is in the OFFICE of the presidency, rather then the puppet sitting in the presidential chair.
    Learn how the US system works before you make outlandish statements.

    Obama'a only power is military, defense, veto, pardons, bill signing, and the bully pulpit.

    ricksfolly

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    Re: What has Damaged America the Most?

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    Learn how the US system works before you make outlandish statements.

    Obama'a only power is military, defense, veto, pardons, bill signing, and the bully pulpit.

    ricksfolly
    Oh come on ricksfolly, you forgot executive orders.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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