View Poll Results: Should there be Tariffs?

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  • YES! Bring back jobs to America!

    19 38.00%
  • No! Free Trade! Its good for the US in the long run

    23 46.00%
  • Tariff Companies in MOST cases!

    4 8.00%
  • Tariff Companies in a very select few cases

    3 6.00%
  • OTHER / I dont know

    1 2.00%
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Thread: Does America Need Tariffs on US Corporations?

  1. #121
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    Re: Does America Need Tariffs on US Corporations?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Agreed, but not entirely as I will explain below.


    I wasn't being non-responsive before, you just didn't understand the point that I was making. So what if the country has protectionism? Eventually the protectionism has to end and production will shift to where it is most beneficial. Perhaps the best example that I can point you to would be what if the industry were subsidized? It would be a permanent problem and would force the country to find other industries to develop because it could not compete with the subsidized insutry. The free trade country will then have to shift to other industries. Okay, accepted. But is this a bad thing? People will still be making money and they will have great cheap goods from that other country. Consumers would seem to win out big time. How about the subsidizing country? Well the people there will have to pay for that industry, so they will experience a big loss everywhere else.

    So which situation seems better, the country with artificially cheap goods and now just has to find other productive things to do, or the country that subsidizes a certain industry by taking from everyone else who produces? Seems clear to me.
    I agree with you, if the other country is subsidizing a specific good we should obviously trade. You are 100% correct that this is a great deal, since they are essentially subsidizing our purchases. I don't think another country subsidizing an industry is protectionism though anyways.

    I think japan is a great example of my point. Look at the massive growth it had during its protectionist time period. Their auto industry was grown behind a massive wall of tariffs, and when japan finally liberalized their trade, japan was a very competitive industry leader. All the while other sectors of japan were growing rapidly as well. Look at what this foreign competition has done to the US auto industry. It went into decline as we lost some of our competitive advantage. Many American workers lost high productivity manufacturing jobs and gained lower wage service jobs.

  2. #122
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    Re: Does America Need Tariffs on US Corporations?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    What you're saying is basically trying to deny the possibility that people would ever take a big loss and invest in something for a reward in the future. If that is true, then how did we ever start building billion dollar hotels? I mean, look at those sunk costs associated with such a venture and the huge amount of capital you would have to gain to start such a project. Yet it is done, and they keep getting built. Barrier to entry would only be a problem in an economy that had no idea how to use loans or attract capital.
    Let me expand upon my theory. You are correct there would have to be problems in the capital market. These problems may be unavoidable. Lets say, that the capital market is imperfect. Is this true in real life? Yes, since arbitrage is possible, not all sources of funds are the same. Because capital markets are imperfect, there are adjustment costs a firm will have when it must invest more money. These adjustment costs would be larger for liquidity constrained firms. Since we are talking about firms that are expecting short-term losses this seems to fit.

    Now imagine that since short-term losses cause these firms to be liquidity constrained, and also causes them to access capital markets more often. This would cause the adjustment costs of such a firm to be large, and these higher costs of borrowing may cause a cost overrun. Combine this with the already large sunk costs I have already mentioned and such an industry and you can see why these barriers of entry could be a problem.

  3. #123
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    Re: Does America Need Tariffs on US Corporations?

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    I agree with you, if the other country is subsidizing a specific good we should obviously trade. You are 100% correct that this is a great deal, since they are essentially subsidizing our purchases. I don't think another country subsidizing an industry is protectionism though anyways.

    I think japan is a great example of my point. Look at the massive growth it had during its protectionist time period. Their auto industry was grown behind a massive wall of tariffs, and when japan finally liberalized their trade, japan was a very competitive industry leader. All the while other sectors of japan were growing rapidly as well. Look at what this foreign competition has done to the US auto industry. It went into decline as we lost some of our competitive advantage. Many American workers lost high productivity manufacturing jobs and gained lower wage service jobs.
    But was that growth because of or despite of the tariffs? That's the question that it boils down to.

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  4. #124
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    Re: Does America Need Tariffs on US Corporations?

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    Let me expand upon my theory. You are correct there would have to be problems in the capital market. These problems may be unavoidable. Lets say, that the capital market is imperfect. Is this true in real life? Yes, since arbitrage is possible, not all sources of funds are the same. Because capital markets are imperfect, there are adjustment costs a firm will have when it must invest more money. These adjustment costs would be larger for liquidity constrained firms. Since we are talking about firms that are expecting short-term losses this seems to fit.

    Now imagine that since short-term losses cause these firms to be liquidity constrained, and also causes them to access capital markets more often. This would cause the adjustment costs of such a firm to be large, and these higher costs of borrowing may cause a cost overrun. Combine this with the already large sunk costs I have already mentioned and such an industry and you can see why these barriers of entry could be a problem.
    Except that we see that despite all of these problems that capital venture are taken anyway and it's done all the time. If it was such a big problem then why do companies still go for it?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  5. #125
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    Re: Does America Need Tariffs on US Corporations?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Except that we see that despite all of these problems that capital venture are taken anyway and it's done all the time. If it was such a big problem then why do companies still go for it?
    Because these large barriers of entry that come from the increased competition of international trade may not exist in every industry, or that industry is already developed enough that these things are not problems.

    I also forgot to mention network effects. When an industry is small, this will be a problem.

  6. #126
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    Re: Does America Need Tariffs on US Corporations?

    I still say that corporations that outsource jobs should have to be punished. I ALSO feel the Unions need to be smacked around too.
    CORPORATE GREED AND UNION GREED
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    DESTROYING THE BEST OF AMERICA ONE DAY AT A TIME

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  7. #127
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    Re: Does America Need Tariffs on US Corporations?

    I say we need tariffs if that were the only option however that is not. Look at Toyota and Honda, they do much of their business over here being a foreign company, and the result is better quality parts built by Americans, and better built cars by Americans whereas GM and Ford imports all their crap from China and Mexico and then builds it here.

    What I find even more ironic about us losing the race to China is the very ****ing people that spout communism this jobs that, are the same people that have no problem with China destroying us and everything in Wal-Mart being made by some kid that committed suicide after he got done putting the soles on the 20,000th shoe of the day getting paid 4 cents an hour. It's ****ing disgusting.

    No, what needs to be done is American companies that do business outside of America (or a certain amount of it) get no tax breaks whatsoever. They are given no free rides, and being an American company, American standards should apply to them be it in India or China. If they don't give into that, then they are denied the right to export and import. Don't want to go through that hassle other companies? Guess you'll just have to set up shop in United States.

    More needs to be done to reinvigorate our agricultural economy, and we need to make people scared ****less of China like we were scared ****less of Russia. If fear is the only thing that make Americans be Americans than so be it.
    "We’re going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying ten percent of his salary, and that’s crazy." -Reagan

  8. #128
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    Re: Does America Need Tariffs on US Corporations?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWOlin View Post
    I say we need tariffs if that were the only option however that is not. Look at Toyota and Honda, they do much of their business over here being a foreign company, and the result is better quality parts built by Americans, and better built cars by Americans whereas GM and Ford imports all their crap from China and Mexico and then builds it here.

    What I find even more ironic about us losing the race to China is the very ****ing people that spout communism this jobs that, are the same people that have no problem with China destroying us and everything in Wal-Mart being made by some kid that committed suicide after he got done putting the soles on the 20,000th shoe of the day getting paid 4 cents an hour. It's ****ing disgusting.

    No, what needs to be done is American companies that do business outside of America (or a certain amount of it) get no tax breaks whatsoever. They are given no free rides, and being an American company, American standards should apply to them be it in India or China. If they don't give into that, then they are denied the right to export and import. Don't want to go through that hassle other companies? Guess you'll just have to set up shop in United States.

    More needs to be done to reinvigorate our agricultural economy, and we need to make people scared ****less of China like we were scared ****less of Russia. If fear is the only thing that make Americans be Americans than so be it.
    Again I fully agree! Great post!
    CORPORATE GREED AND UNION GREED
    DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS
    DESTROYING THE BEST OF AMERICA ONE DAY AT A TIME

    This is the worst kind of discrimination. The kind against ME! ~ Bender

  9. #129
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    Re: Does America Need Tariffs on US Corporations?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant Noodle View Post
    Where is the manufacturing? Not here in the US. Why do you buy the less expensive products made overseas? Probably because they are less expensive.
    What about outsourcing jobs to India? To other countries?
    Why do companies do that? Labor is less expensive!
    Companies go where labor is cheap! We go to where products are cheap!
    ------
    Now, will US made products ever be as cheap as other countries? Nope.
    Will US labor ever be as cheap as other countries? Nope.
    ------
    Will the US survive with companies outsourcing jobs?
    Will the US survive with imports that are half the price as ours?
    ------
    Bottom Line..... should the US government provide heavy tariffs to US companies when they do outsource their jobs to another country?
    Should there be heavy tariffs on MOST imported products?
    The Giant Noodle, although all USA purchasers benefit from the imports’ superior values per dollar, those advantages do not compensate for our chronic annual trade deficits effects upon working families and others to the extent they’re dependent upon enterprises that are themselves somewhat dependent upon USA’s median-wage’s purchasing power.


    Both tariff and Import Certificate proposals for global trade would increase prices to their nation’s purchasers of imported goods. Under proposed bilateral USA tariff policy, the increased prices we would pay for imported goods would be entirely government determined and any net federal revenues due to the tariffs would contribute to our federal budget.

    Under Wikipedia’s proposed unilateral Import Certificate proposal there would be no net federal costs or revenues.
    Any federal fees that exporters of USA goods choose, (i.e. they’re not required) to pay, are to defray net federal expenditures’ due to this policy.
    Additional costs beyond federal direct expenditures due to this policy are entirely market determined and such additional costs to the importers of those foreign goods effectively serve as price subsidies for USA’s exported goods.
    This policy would certainly increase USA’s GDP and numbers of jobs more than otherwise under all economic circumstances. Regardless import price increases, (even if they were only pennies per transaction), this policy would eliminate or almost eliminate USA’s chronic annual trade deficits of goods.

    Tariffs cannot achieve their purposes unless they are sufficiently high. The most drastically high tariffs could effectively eliminate USA’s entire global trade but any lesser rate could not assure elimination or almost elimination of USA’s annual trade deficits of goods.

    Tariff policies are entirely driven by their government’s determinations. Those on the political left generally deny and/or ignore markets rather than governments determinations clearer reflecting their participants’ preferences.

    Those on the political right cannot acknowledge the fact of annual trade deficits drag upon their nation’s GDPs and numbers of jobs. This enables them to deny or disregard trade deficits net financial detriments to aggregate family’s dependent upon employment derived incomes or to enterprises more dependent upon the financial circumstances of those earning less than the nation’s median wage.

    Refer to Wikipedia’s “Import Certificates” article.

    Respectfully, Supposn

  10. #130
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    Re: Does America Need Tariffs on US Corporations?

    Here I thought the Giant Noodle was back but it turns out it was just his 2010 thread making a comeback. Personally, I don't know what to think of tariffs. I've seen reasonable arguments cutting both ways.

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