View Poll Results: What do you think of allowing a random sample of citizens to govern?

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Thread: Deliberative Democracy

  1. #11
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    Re: Deliberative Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by peepnklown View Post
    This model has already been tired a long, long time ago; Athenian democracy had this feature.
    Yes, the article mentions that. What are your thoughts on it?

    Quote Originally Posted by peepnklown
    We need to follow the Declaration of Independence! We need to put government back into their small boxes (federal & state); then and only then, we can talk about you and our neighbors running for office.
    Why does the first need to be resolved before the second?
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-05-10 at 07:00 AM.
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  2. #12
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    Re: Deliberative Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Check out this article in TIME Magazine. James Fishkin suggests a good model for governance: Choose a representative sample of the population, and have them serve as the government. This has been implemented in many localities in several countries...but the greatest success of this form of democracy comes from China, of all places. The coastal district Zeguo governs itself in precisely this manner, by picking a random sampling of its citizens, teaching them about the issues, allowing them to ask questions of experts, and then having them decide on their own.

    I really like this idea. I think it would solve a lot of problems with gridlock, incumbency, and partisanship...while also preserving most of the reasons we have democracy in the first place: To accurately represent public opinion, and to prevent abuses of power and corruption.

    What do you think of this idea? What flaws (if any) do you foresee in a system like this?

    How Can a Democracy Solve Tough Problems? - TIME
    I think it would work best at the county level and state level than at the federal level.

    However, at the federal level, I'd prefer a reform that institutes the Wyoming Rule. The Wyoming Rule would give the state with the least population (currently Wyoming) 1 seat in the House of Representatives. The number of seats the other states get in the House would be based around this. This way, a more representative democratic process is instituted in the House.

    I'd also prefer Instant Run-off Voting for elections so third-parties can get elected.

    If this "deliberative democracy" gets instituted, however, I don't want any restrictions on who gets chosen. What's great about the democratic process is the openess of who is allowed to take part in decisions. If you place restrictions on that, then you automatically favor one group or special interest over another. I think that's wrong in a democratic society.

  3. #13
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    Re: Deliberative Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    I understand that. Everybody should have the chance to run.

    I was speaking against your post. You seem to think those that can't go to college and can't afford a home should be treated as second class citizens.

    I never said there aren't elections.
    No, he was saying they shouldn't run the government. If you're too stupid to wipe your own ass, should you be allowed to make decision for others who can? The answer is NO.
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  4. #14
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    Re: Deliberative Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Check out this article in TIME Magazine. James Fishkin suggests a good model for governance: Choose a representative sample of the population, and have them serve as the government. This has been implemented in many localities in several countries...but the greatest success of this form of democracy comes from China, of all places. The coastal district Zeguo governs itself in precisely this manner, by picking a random sampling of its citizens, teaching them about the issues, allowing them to ask questions of experts, and then having them decide on their own.

    I really like this idea. I think it would solve a lot of problems with gridlock, incumbency, and partisanship...while also preserving most of the reasons we have democracy in the first place: To accurately represent public opinion, and to prevent abuses of power and corruption.

    What do you think of this idea? What flaws (if any) do you foresee in a system like this?

    How Can a Democracy Solve Tough Problems? - TIME
    Well - this 'blue ribbon' initiative is what smart leaders do *rather* than pretending they know what to do - they're at least trying to grasp, understand and figure out the problem.

    However- people *do* do that. I've read quite afew different proposals and plans from others over 2010, 2011 budgets and so on - what they money should and shouldn't be spent on, where hikes and cuts should be made. People dedicate - volunteer - their time to these things and sometimes these things make their way to DC through someone and find their way - in whole or part - into various actions taken by Congress, etc.

    Having any-ole body coming up with ideas isn't very comforting to me. . . neither is our current system.
    We're still *very much* out of the loop on those decisions.
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    Re: Deliberative Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Check out this article in TIME Magazine. James Fishkin suggests a good model for governance: Choose a representative sample of the population, and have them serve as the government. This has been implemented in many localities in several countries...but the greatest success of this form of democracy comes from China, of all places. The coastal district Zeguo governs itself in precisely this manner, by picking a random sampling of its citizens, teaching them about the issues, allowing them to ask questions of experts, and then having them decide on their own.

    I really like this idea. I think it would solve a lot of problems with gridlock, incumbency, and partisanship...while also preserving most of the reasons we have democracy in the first place: To accurately represent public opinion, and to prevent abuses of power and corruption.

    What do you think of this idea? What flaws (if any) do you foresee in a system like this?

    How Can a Democracy Solve Tough Problems? - TIME
    For local areas, sure it could work fine. For government, no way! It all depends on how it will function. First off, many cases are way too difficult and uninteresting that the average voter can set himself into. For instance, who cares about "Veterinary Services Investment Act" that was just recently passed.

    Secondly, a difference in Deliberative Democracy is that it tries to achieve consensus. You will probably find that quite hard for some issues, some issues that require some tough policies to improve the conditions.

  6. #16
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    Re: Deliberative Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    I proposed that idea 15 years ago, except I required the candidates meet minimum requirements of education, productivity, maturity, and loyalty.

    Given that American high schools excel at producing unskilled labor, clearly the candidate pool has to have more than a high school education.

    The candidate should have some experience living, which means a minimum age requirement of 30 years old. Damn stupid of this country to have children who've never held a job they couldn't afford to lose voting in elections.

    A productive person has either held a job long term or run his own business. Thus candidates would have a minimum of five of the seven years prior to his candidacy employed.

    The candidate can't be living in his mommy's basement, or attic, or othewise have failed to exit the nest.

    The candidate must have proven a sacrifice to the nation to qualify. That means, cop, fireman, military veteran. Americorps weenies need not apply.
    So you proposed a government run by middle/upper middle class military folks and cops over the age of 30. That's not exactly what the OP anticipated. Saying you proposed this idea 15 years ago is like saying you came up with the idea for twitter, except your idea involved writing notes on paper and handing them to friends in class.
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  7. #17
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    Re: Deliberative Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoplite View Post
    The current political process is a joke and I pray to every god and goddess there is that you understand that.
    I understand perfectly that the Democrats have done every possible thing they can imagine to corrupt the process.

    Early voting.
    Universal absentee voting
    Motor voter registration.
    Opposing any and all efforts to demand verification of citizenship of prospective registered voters.
    Opposing any and all efforts to demand the presentation of lawful ID at the polls.
    Opposition to basic literacy requirements.

    ANYTHING and EVERYTHING the Democrats can do to corrupt elections, they've been doing.

    Yes, I'm FULLY aware of the problems with the American electoral process.

    What do you do if people get power-hungry, can you force the group out of power if that happens and who does the forcing?
    What group? Under the scenario I presented, the office holders are chosen from the candidate pool randomly, for a fixed term. Then they get to go back to their civillian life and live under the laws they passed.

    Naturally, there will still be a written constitution with specifcally enumerated powers and a specifc bill of rights. I mean, the US Constitution, when followed, provides the most secure guarantees of individual liberty in human history.

    If you're referring to the nonsense we have today, it's becoming increasingly clear that the brick and stone walls in Washington could be put to better use with firing squads in front of them.

    What do you do if you get one egocentric jackass that holds procedures up because he's enjoying the power?
    You mean like when Patrick Leahy deliberately stonewalled Bush judicial appointees simply because Bush was a Republican and might nominate judges that believe the Constitution is a limit on goverment?

    The word is "term limits" and an end to arrogance.

    Humans have a natural tendency to "clique", what's to stop cliques among these random people from impairing their judgement?
    What's to stop Obama from hitting the links?

    Nothing.

    What's to stop government office holders from developing an us vs them attitude?

    Term limits.

    How do you ensure you dont accidentally end up selecting a group of all one particular political persuasion, which in America isnt terribly unlikely?
    Amazing thing about the word random. It keeps people from selecting.

    What do you do if groups start counter-manding each other or trying to undo the work that one group just did because they disagree with it?
    I have no idea what kind of weird power structure you're pretending to see.

    And, frankly, I WANT the Republican to not only demolish the edifice of socialism built in this nation by the evil Progressives, but I demand they bury the corpse of socialism in the world's deepest salt bed.

    So, you're saying there's something wrong with undoing the efforts of preceding office holders?

    I say we have to fix the mistakes of the past and replace the socialists with Americans.

    I'm not opposed to it, but I am somewhat skeptical. Again, I would want to see the idea piloted in a major city or even a state before I would start gelling into being for or against it.
    The method I proposed violates significant portions of the US Constitution and will not be implented, ever, anywhere.

  8. #18
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    Re: Deliberative Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    So you proposed a government run by middle/upper middle class military folks and cops over the age of 30. That's not exactly what the OP anticipated. Saying you proposed this idea 15 years ago is like saying you came up with the idea for twitter, except your idea involved writing notes on paper and handing them to friends in class.
    No.

    Saying I thought it up 15 years ago is a simple statement of fact.

    I'm retarded enough to see any value in twitter and there's no way I could have imagined anything as useless as that.

    When I was in high school, in 1978, I postulated that since the TV repairman told me that the CRT was the weakest point of a TV, that we could possibly use LCD's to make TV's. That's as far as it goes, since I'm a mechanic, not an electrician.

    Lots and lots of people come up with ideas and they lack the skills and capital to do anything with them.

    It means nothing.

    You should focus on the issue, not your personal creative failings.

  9. #19
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    Re: Deliberative Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanitas View Post
    Agreed. Nobody should be able to make a career as a politician.
    Not only shouldn't they, they shouldn't be permitted to. We ought to have serious term limits. You can work for no more than 2-3 terms in *ANY* political office, then you are not eligible to hold any elected office again until you have worked at least one term in the private sector. This should be true of every elected office in the country.
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    Re: Deliberative Democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    I was speaking against your post. You seem to think those that can't go to college and can't afford a home should be treated as second class citizens.
    No.

    I think that those who aren't educated and can't support themselves aren't practical candidates for leadership. Certainly there's exceptions, but in general, grow up, okay?

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