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Thread: A tax credit for a product means no one wants to buy it

  1. #41
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    Re: A tax credit for a product means no one wants to buy it

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    On the aspect of price to value, you're correct. However, on the basis of Rush's asinine argument that tax credit = no one wants it period, both prove very pointed examples of Rush being full of crap.
    /sigh

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Nope, as typical from Rush its hyperbole built upon a more reasonable basic notion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    So to say "nobody wants it" is hyperbole.
    Yes, we already generally agreed though you think he's "full of ****" and I just see it as typical trumped up hyperbole by a commentator who typically boils **** down to the simplest extreme..

    Not at the current moment no, but Fiskar is scaling up to 15,000 for its Karma and I believe the roadster is going well beyond that as well.
    15,000 production for the year is great and all....

    That's 2,000 less than Ford Fusions sold in July of 2010.

    Its still miniscule and doesn't really show that the fact there's "back orders" necessarily shows that by and large people, in a general societal sense, would buy it.

    Which further proves that the credit is rather irrelevant to people wanting the cars.
    Yes, its irrelevant with regards to his hyperbolic taken to the extreme argument. For what the basis of his argument is, it doesn't disprove the notion. The tax credit currently on hybrids and electrics shortens the gap between hybrids and good fuel economy standard cars, making it more likely for people to buy it. A legitimate argument could be made that there would not be as large scale embracing of hybrids with actual wallets by a significant number of mainstream citizens if not for the reduction in price and the mental influences a seeming "rebate" does to the buying public.

  2. #42
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    Re: A tax credit for a product means no one wants to buy it

    I doubt we can compute true market value for anything the govt has a hand in....
    The Thermal Solar water heaters that so many of us installed back in the 80s were subsidized, and the industry died anyway. Why? The vendors were jacking up the price based on the amount of subsidy. They killed their own industry by being greedy. Not to mention the design of most systems almost guaranteed expensive replacement of the flimsy collectors.
    True Market Value is like beauty, in the eye of the beholder.
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    Truth rings hollow in empty heads.

  3. #43
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    Re: A tax credit for a product means no one wants to buy it

    Quote Originally Posted by The Uncola View Post
    Rush is always wrong.
    That is just plain stupid.



  4. #44
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    Re: A tax credit for a product means no one wants to buy it

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbbtx View Post
    I don't know why any tax credit for a product would be a good thing. The government doesn't have it's own money. That is tax payer money to begin with. Let the free market work and stop trying to pick winners and losers. That's not the job of the government.
    The free market tends to be anathema to some on this board. They think the job of government is to run every aspect of everyone's life



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    Re: A tax credit for a product means no one wants to buy it

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbbtx View Post
    I don't know why any tax credit for a product would be a good thing. The government doesn't have it's own money. That is tax payer money to begin with. Let the free market work and stop trying to pick winners and losers. That's not the job of the government.
    The whole point of the tax credit is help the environment, reduce foreign oil dependency, and promote environmental responsibility in this country. This is a national security issue and also a national issue because of the impact on the environment. Many of you probably don't favor the Mideast region and don't want to be dependent on oil from there. This tax credit helps reduce foreign oil dependency.

    The free market is not a panacea, and does not care about the environment, only on maximizing profit. If it wasn't for regulation and the government, many of the products you use would contain lead, carcinogens, and other harmful chemicals. Companies would not bother to regulate their environmental impact and safety of their products because that costs money, and they could just hide or conceal any dangers from the consumer.

    This tax break is not picking and choosing companies, its not picking LG over Mitsubishi, its treating all companies the same and its saying that this product will further our national interests than current products.

    Again, many of you knock governmental regulation, but you enjoy the benefits of their protections, such as minimal acid rain and breathing relatively clean air with less SO2, CO, NO, and NO2. If catalytic converters weren't required by the government, car companies would probably not include them because they add to the cost. I doubt people would be environmentally conscious and purchase cars with catalytic converters too if they added to the cost.

  6. #46
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    Re: A tax credit for a product means no one wants to buy it

    Quote Originally Posted by Opteron View Post
    Other way around, your surprising knowledge of thermodynamics should provide you no excuse for your ignorant and government-phobic world view. Basically, you're exceptional market economics and lack of environmental regulation-view dictates that we would all be using lead-filled merchandise and breathing NO2 and sulfur air, because why should companies waste money on environmental protections?
    What's surprising? That an engineer knows engineering or the fact that most engineers are Americans, not socialists?

    You should try to bone up on the concept of libertarianism and the libertarian understanding of property rights and the commons. MY concepts are ideologically sound, and your concepts are talking points.

    If you looked at the context at which the storage of electricity is mentioned, its that storage on a large scale in the power grid is when electricity is not stored. Of course everyone knows it can be stored in batteries on a small scale, that's obvious.
    You sure electricity can't be stored? What about a flywheel? What about capacitor bank? What about electrolyzing H20 and saving the H in a fuel cell?

    The words you're groping for is that eletricity is a wonderful means to transfer energy from the generator to the motor, but it really sucks when it has to wait.

    There is excess electricity. Any capacity generated which is not used is excess electricity, but it is not stored. Because we don't experience power outages often, that means the generated electrical capacity is always greater than what we use, therefore electricity is wasted, or energy is wasted. I was a physics major, I know something about electricity generation and power plant function.
    That's nice.

    I was an operator in a nuclear power plant. I'm betting I know more about the nuts and bolts and valves of electrical power generation than you do.

    The Kelvin scale is better...
    No, that's just bigotry. The definition of the degree Kelvin as 1/100 of the temperature difference between the point of fusion and the point of vaporization of water at Earth sea level air pressure. That's no less parochial than Lord Fahrenheit abritrarily ruling etches on his first thermometer and never bothering to adjust for that minor difference.

    So, whatever.

    (Which isn't to say I wouldn't rather work metric than English, but that's not my call.)

    The battery and its materials can be recycled. Even with a heavy battery, its still more efficient than your car. Hybrids even with a large battery have been proven to be more efficient than a regular car.
    I measure my Car-no efficiency in terms of dollars per mile, from date of purchase to date of disposal. My antique but well running gas hog van has that metric won hands down.

    Basicly, there's no good reason the government should be intruding on the principles of free market economic by stealing money from tax payers to subsidize this dinosaur of a golf-cart.

  7. #47
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    Re: A tax credit for a product means no one wants to buy it

    Quote Originally Posted by Opteron View Post
    The whole point of the tax credit is help the environment, reduce foreign oil dependency, and promote environmental responsibility in this country.
    No.

    The whole point of the subsidy is to artificially boost sales of Chevy's Golf Cart, allow the government to tell the public that's been robbed that keeping GM out of the bankruptcy courts wasn't the mistake it clearly was, and to provide sales to goonion members who would otherwise have to find something useful to do with themselves.

    This is a national security issue
    Can't possibly be. The same gangsters that stole the money to subsidize this golf cart are also the same clowns who have an completely unreasonable moratorium on oil drilling in the Gulf of Mexico and previously restricted drilling and exploration off shore to smaller areas.

    and also a national issue because of the impact on the environment.
    Yawn. Cars are already so pampered and gadgeteered that practically the only effluents are CO2 and Water. My gas hog van emits less than 137 ppm hydrocarbons. Minimal environmental footprint, that.

    Many of you probably don't favor the Mideast region and don't want to be dependent on oil from there.
    Drill.

    Drill in the US.

    Drill off shore.

    Drill now.

    Don't wait.

    That's the answer you're avoiding.

    This tax credit helps reduce foreign oil dependency.
    This subsidy doesn't do any such thing.

    The free market is not a panacea,
    It's more like a pancreas. Too incredibly complicated for some, but you can't live healthy without one.

    and does not care about the environment, only on maximizing profit.
    Oh, spare us the mindless pattering paternalism of the professional talking point reader, okay?

    [qoute]If it wasn't for regulation and the government, many of the products you use would contain lead, carcinogens, and other harmful chemicals.[/quote]

    If it wasn't for the interferences of government, the economy wouldn't have collapsed in 2008 or 1929.

    Nor would nearly two hundred million people have been murdered in the last century by their government.

    Companies would not bother to regulate their environmental impact and safety of their products because that costs money, and they could just hide or conceal any dangers from the consumer.
    Yes.

    Naturally the consumer must be totally stupid. Why else would they surrender their freedoms for governemnt security?

    I mean, what parent wouldn't want to save fifty cents or so by using leaded paint in their kid's nursery? I mean, duh! That's four bits!

    This tax break is not picking and choosing companies, its not picking LG over Mitsubishi, its treating all companies the same and its saying that this product will further our national interests than current products.
    Oh. I didn't realize all those companies were involved in the manufacture and sales of the Chevy Golf Cart.

    Again, many of you knock governmental regulation, but you enjoy the benefits of their protections, such as minimal acid rain and breathing relatively clean air with less SO2, CO, NO, and NO2. If catalytic converters weren't required by the government, car companies would probably not include them because they add to the cost. I doubt people would be environmentally conscious and purchase cars with catalytic converters too if they added to the cost.

    That's what you got? The tired old, "gee, just think how much worse it is for those free negros in Africa" argument?

  8. #48
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    Re: A tax credit for a product means no one wants to buy it

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    You sure electricity can't be stored? What about a flywheel? What about capacitor bank? What about electrolyzing H20 and saving the H in a fuel cell?

    The words you're groping for is that eletricity is a wonderful means to transfer energy from the generator to the motor, but it really sucks when it has to wait.
    No, the words I'm looking for is that electricity is not stored on current power grids. Of course you can transfer energy from one form to another, that's nothing new. Engineers in all their wisdom have determined that there is no easy way to store electricity on a large scale, currently or they would already be doing it. I even quoted it from the wikipedia and you still don't believe it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    That's nice.

    I was an operator in a nuclear power plant. I'm betting I know more about the nuts and bolts and valves of electrical power generation than you do.
    Well if you did, then you'd have probably known that electricity is not stored in the current power grid. It's even quoted in the wikipedia, but you don't so I doubt it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    No, that's just bigotry. The definition of the degree Kelvin as 1/100 of the temperature difference between the point of fusion and the point of vaporization of water at Earth sea level air pressure. That's no less parochial than Lord Fahrenheit abritrarily ruling etches on his first thermometer and never bothering to adjust for that minor difference.

    So, whatever.

    (Which isn't to say I wouldn't rather work metric than English, but that's not my call.
    No, that's stupidity to work in units that have no relation to the physical elements they're related too. The Fahrenheit scale is arbitrary, the Kelvin and Celsius scale are based on the most important of physical elements in the most common conditions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    You should try to bone up on the concept of libertarianism and the libertarian understanding of property rights and the commons. MY concepts are ideologically sound, and your concepts are talking points.
    Nope, your concepts and views and not logically sound and consistent. Thermodynamics, engineering are all based on logic, your principles are inconsistent and not logically defendable. I could point out the inconsistencies and where you're wrong, if you're willing to listen and admit when you are wrong, but I doubt you would be willing to change your views and admit when you're wrong.
    Even libertarianism is not logically sound and has it's flaws.
    Last edited by Opteron; 08-22-10 at 01:56 AM.

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    Re: A tax credit for a product means no one wants to buy it

    Not literally nobody, just too few for it to be a successful thing.

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    Re: A tax credit for a product means no one wants to buy it

    I say I'm libertarian because it makes the MOST sense to me, amongst popular political groups. Could you list some faults in the Libertarian foundation? I'm wondering what you mean by flaws.

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