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Thread: A tax credit for a product means no one wants to buy it

  1. #31
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    Re: A tax credit for a product means no one wants to buy it

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    If a person wanted a catalytic converter (god knows why, I don't) he has always had the freedom to go out and buy one with his own money.
    Apparently you think that people should be allowed to pollute as they so please without any restrictions at all.

    Not complicated at all.
    Well, if your beliefs are delusional, sure!

    How about them? Is there some reason someone in the desert needs a subsidy to buy a gadget that reduces his water bill? Isn't he already getting a savings by buying it himself?
    So you think that government should not influence anyone on anything?

    We have the government stealing money from some taxpayers to give other people a present to appease racketeers that have succeeded in seizing control of a major formerly free industry.
    The notion that taxation = theft is a sign of serious mental issues. Inflation = theft. Get it right.

    Yawn.

    Borrrrrrrinnggggg.

    And quite irrelevant.
    Hardly. Arguing in the context of a free market ignores what a free market looks like.

    If anyone can figure out it's supposed relationship to Government Motors demanding taxes be stolen to finance sales of is junky car.
    That depends. Do they view taxation as theft?

    When you finally read it for the first time, you'll notice distinct lack of anything giving the government the authority to discriminate among citizens.
    I wasn't aware that businesses were citizens. Can you point that out to me?

    No. The government picks companies that have presented bids that have satisfied the RFP in better ways than the competitors, for the most part.
    But in the process, they have indeed picked a winner. By the notion of BIDS alone they have done what you claim they should not have done. In the same fashion as picking the most suitable project for its needs, government issuing tax credits for products that are more suitable for its needs, such as reducing consumer water use has done the same thing. Your argument's problem is that it refuses to apply a single set of standards. If it's civilian it's wrong, but if it's military then it's okay. Despite the SAME principles at work.

    Unless you're Northrop-Grumman and you've won the new refueling tanker bid three times, and Boeing's pals in government keep getting it re-opened because they're sore losers.
    I'll give you that one.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  2. #32
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    Re: A tax credit for a product means no one wants to buy it

    Quote Originally Posted by Opteron View Post
    Um, generating electricity at power plants is much more efficient than trying to generate power in a small car.
    Carnot efficiency man, it's called Carnot Efficiency.

    And it's not all that wonderful.

    Really, it's not.

    It just hides the CO2 production to someone else's back yard. Probably in some low class minority urban neighborhood where the property values are lower because of the presence of the coal fired electric plant that's stinking up the 'hood and giving the children asthma. But that doesn't matter, so long as the limosuine liberals can make their money and feel superior.

    Not to mention you could use excess electricity which would otherwise be wasted.
    No such thing as "excess" electricity. Just in case you didn't notice, the theory that electricity is a fluid died with the discovery of the electron. Electricity is nothing but the motion of charge. If someone isn't drawing current at the plug, the generator isn't burning coal, gas, oil, or uranium to push the current through the plug.

    You keep saying silly things like "excess" electricity too often and people are going to start suspecting you don't know what you're talking about.

    And also, if we were to switch to renewable energy sources or nuclear, using your electric car would no longer cause CO2 emissions.
    You mean by "renewable" those wonderful Works-In-The-Dark Solar Power Plants, or those Incredible-What-If-The-Wind-Stops-Blowing Towering Cuisinarts of the Bird Kingdom, both of which require full stand-by-generating back-up capability available to be put on-line within SECONDS of the failure of the wind or sun? Since those back generators are fueled by...um....FUEL, and since those devices can't be started up in an instant, that means those generators have to be ALREADY running and BURNING fuel to be ready when the Magic power sources fail.

    Where's your no-CO2 advantage again, hmmm?

    If you're a Global Warming conspiracy theorist, please keep perpetuating your wrong view.
    No. I don't support the conspiracy that is AGW in the least. I've seen the hoax for what it truly is for decades.

    [quote]You're ancient van guzzles gas, why should we pay environmentally for your polluting car?[quote]

    You don't.

    I don't recall sending you a bill.

    If you want to subsidize me, just post your Pay-Pal account info right here, and someone will get back to you.

    [quote]I'm glad we have some sensible people in Congress and in the majority at least. [quote]

    Oh.

    I thought you lived on Planet Earth. That statement there, though, puts your positions in a whole new context.

    If you don't want to play along, you're welcome to not pay your taxes, but I don't think that will go very well.
    There's a reason why socialists have machine guns.

    Stealing tax dollars is the reason.

    More like 50-75 years. Oil will be running out soon, what a great attitude, if it doesn't happen today, just forget about it.
    Just in case you chose to ignore it, I did say the US have "TRILLIONS" of barrels of reserves.

  3. #33
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    Re: A tax credit for a product means no one wants to buy it

    Tax rebates in general work a lot like a rebate at Best Buy--you will see incredible Sony tvs with crazy rebates, come with a BluRay player etc with the main intent to make the product cheaper to build, steadily lower the price, and make it more worth it to the average consumer.

    With a tax rebate for many tax payers, that just means they would pay less taxes, some would get some of that back, but over the course of time the government makes that money back with the amount of people put to work, taxes on the car, etc and it has the dual effect now of making it easier and more attractive for car makers to meet the 35MPG (I think that is what it was) guideline.
    "We’re going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying ten percent of his salary, and that’s crazy." -Reagan

  4. #34
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    Re: A tax credit for a product means no one wants to buy it

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Apparently you think that people should be allowed to pollute as they so please without any restrictions at all.
    Apparently you haven't asked the right questions and you need your assumptions to conduct a discussion.

    So you think that government should not influence anyone on anything?
    "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

    Pretty explicit, that.

    The notion that taxation = theft is a sign of serious mental issues. Inflation = theft. Get it right.
    The notion that someone can't understand that taxation for unconstitutional, and hence, illegal, government mandates is theft indeed a sign of their willingness to moon at the window hoping Peter Pan will take them to Never Never Land.

    I present the world as it is. The horse drinks of it, or not.

    ardly. Arguing in the context of a free market ignores what a free market looks like.
    Well, the first thing a free market would look like is a whole bunch of Democrat-voting goonionistas in Michigan pounding the pavement looking for work, while real car companies who weren't raped by the goonions were picking over the corpses of GM and Chrysler looking for deals, which in turn would lead to Americans being able to buy cars they want to purchase without being robbed by their government to subsidize a car company and a car company's products they simply do not want.

    The will of the American people in the matter of how much of their money should go to General Motors was decided by the free market. Enough Americans decided they didn't want their money going to GM that GM was facing bankruptcy. There was no need for the government to violate the will of the majority by bailing out GM and Chrysler. The People had already established bankruptcy courts that had the laws and the expertise to handle what needed to be done for GM and Chrysler.

    It was that simple, back when America was free.

    That depends. Do they view taxation as theft?
    If they don't view taxes taken from them to pay for unconstitutional and hence illegal government activity as theft, they're not capable of thought.

    I wasn't aware that businesses were citizens. Can you point that out to me?
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    Businessmen are citizens. They're even, in most cases in the US, AMERICAN citizens.

    But in the process, they have indeed picked a winner.
    Oh, duh.

    Meanwhile, that doesn't mean your argument isn't silliness hiding as emptiness that I've wasted enough time on.

    Guess what, just in case you haven't figured it out, the Constitution not only authorizes the Federal government to defend the nation, it requires the federal government to defend the nation, and that means the government has to buy the tools to do the job. So grow up and figure out that a car company doesn't have the same constitutional standing as a firm providing nuclear submarines to the Navy.

  5. #35
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    Re: A tax credit for a product means no one wants to buy it

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Carnot efficiency man, it's called Carnot Efficiency.

    And it's not all that wonderful.

    Really, it's not.
    Don't try to lecture me on Carnot efficiency. The Carnot efficiency is higher in a power planet because of the temperatures, and the working efficiency is better because of the geometry and design.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    No such thing as "excess" electricity. Just in case you didn't notice, the theory that electricity is a fluid died with the discovery of the electron. Electricity is nothing but the motion of charge. If someone isn't drawing current at the plug, the generator isn't burning coal, gas, oil, or uranium to push the current through the plug.

    You keep saying silly things like "excess" electricity too often and people are going to start suspecting you don't know what you're talking about.
    Um, I think you are the one who has no idea what they're talking about. I don't know what you're talking about fluid and motion of charge but you obviously have no idea how electricity is generated:

    A key limitation in the distribution of electricity is that, with minor exceptions, electrical energy cannot be stored, and therefore it must be generated as it is needed. A sophisticated system of control is therefore required to ensure electric generation very closely matches the demand. If supply and demand are not in balance, generation plants and transmission equipment can shut down which, in the worst cases, can lead to a major regional blackout,
    Electric power transmission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Excess electricity is not stored. Any electricity that is generated and not used is lost. If you keep spinning the turbine, irregardless of whether the electricity is being used or not, fuel will be used and energy will be lost. There may not be as much load, but energy will be lost nonetheless.

    I don't think I should bother to respond to the rest of your post, based on these two arguments, you're not aware of facts.
    Last edited by Opteron; 08-21-10 at 04:14 AM.

  6. #36
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    Re: A tax credit for a product means no one wants to buy it

    Quote Originally Posted by Opteron View Post
    Don't try to lecture me on Carnot efficiency. The Carnot efficiency is higher in a power planet because of the temperatures, and the working efficiency is better because of the geometry and design.
    Good, you have some inkling of thermodynamics which means you have no excuse for your ignorance of basic market economics and the basic morality that says the government shouldn't be ordering people what to do or what to buy and most importantly shouldn't be stealing from people who don't want a product to reduce the price others have to pay for it.

    And, let's see....the temperature of your typical boiler some six hundred degrees, the temperature of the heat sink is typically sixty degrees...gotta convert that to rankine, of course....then there's the temperature of your average combustion engine, which is somewhere around damn hot, and the heat sink temperature, which isn't all that much different than the power plants. There's the matter of closed cycle heat engine loops versus the open cycle internal combustion process....but typically your average steam plant isn't seeing more than a 30% ideal carnot efficiency, and your car isn't getting more than 15%, at best.

    But the car isn't running 24 hours a day, the steam plant is....hmmm....that has to be given some part of the figure of merit...then there's the inefficiency and environmental damage caused by the non-recyclable portions of the 1000-lb battery in the electric car...and the fact that really, when it's time to replace the battery in that car the car isn't going to be worth keeping, financially. Whereas my honkin' old one-ton cargo van is fit to go for another quarter million miles, and who cares if it ain't pretty? I can have a block party inside the car!

    Um, I think you are the one who has no idea what they're talking about. I don't know what you're talking about fluid and motion of charge but you obviously have no idea how electricity is generated:
    No, of course I don't. I just ran the machinery in the engine room of a navy nuclear submarine for six years.

    Your failure to understand my discussion isn't a failure on my part to explain. I'm quite articulate. You've missed key words and you need to read the lessons again until you understand them.

    Excess electricity is not stored. Any generated and not used is lost.
    Amazing.

    That means there's no excess electricity.

    Which is what I said.

    BTW, if excess electricity is not stored, as you just claimed, why does the Volt have a battery?

    Hmmm?

  7. #37
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    Re: A tax credit for a product means no one wants to buy it

    Guys, carnot efficiency is impossible in reality. It is an idealization. It will never be reached (see 2nd law of thermodynamics).

    Skarkrow, I have no idea why anyone would ever willingly use rankine.

  8. #38
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    Re: A tax credit for a product means no one wants to buy it

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    Guys, carnot efficiency is impossible in reality. It is an idealization. It will never be reached (see 2nd law of thermodynamics).

    Skarkrow, I have no idea why anyone would ever willingly use rankine.
    Too ignorant to spell someone's screen name correctly?

    I'm fully aware that carnot efficiency is an idealization. It's kinda stressed in thermodynamics and heat transfer courses in college

    People use degrees rankine because they're also using BTU's, foot-pound-force, and good old g-sub-c.

    It's called engineering in the English system. And if you start with temperatures in Fahrenheit, their absolute temperatures are in rankine. It's not hard.

    Real engineers used to use it all the time.

    Ain't a spacecraft in American built to metric standards who's engineers aren't discussing the tensile ultimate allowable of Aluminum Alloy 6061-T6 as 42 ksi, and not some figure in megapascals.
    Last edited by Scarecrow Akhbar; 08-21-10 at 05:15 AM.

  9. #39
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    Re: A tax credit for a product means no one wants to buy it

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Good, you have some inkling of thermodynamics which means you have no excuse for your ignorance of basic market economics and the basic morality that says the government shouldn't be ordering people what to do or what to buy and most importantly shouldn't be stealing from people who don't want a product to reduce the price others have to pay for it.
    Other way around, your surprising knowledge of thermodynamics should provide you no excuse for your ignorant and government-phobic world view. Basically, you're exceptional market economics and lack of environmental regulation-view dictates that we would all be using lead-filled merchandise and breathing NO2 and sulfur air, because why should companies waste money on environmental protections?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Amazing.

    That means there's no excess electricity.

    Which is what I said.

    BTW, if excess electricity is not stored, as you just claimed, why does the Volt have a battery?

    Hmmm?
    If you looked at the context at which the storage of electricity is mentioned, its that storage on a large scale in the power grid is when electricity is not stored. Of course everyone knows it can be stored in batteries on a small scale, that's obvious.

    There is excess electricity. Any capacity generated which is not used is excess electricity, but it is not stored. Because we don't experience power outages often, that means the generated electrical capacity is always greater than what we use, therefore electricity is wasted, or energy is wasted. I was a physics major, I know something about electricity generation and power plant function.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    And, let's see....the temperature of your typical boiler some six hundred degrees, the temperature of the heat sink is typically sixty degrees...gotta convert that to rankine, of course....then there's the temperature of your average combustion engine, which is somewhere around damn hot, and the heat sink temperature, which isn't all that much different than the power plants. There's the matter of closed cycle heat engine loops versus the open cycle internal combustion process....but typically your average steam plant isn't seeing more than a 30% ideal carnot efficiency, and your car isn't getting more than 15%, at best.
    The Kelvin scale is better...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    But the car isn't running 24 hours a day, the steam plant is....hmmm....that has to be given some part of the figure of merit...then there's the inefficiency and environmental damage caused by the non-recyclable portions of the 1000-lb battery in the electric car...and the fact that really, when it's time to replace the battery in that car the car isn't going to be worth keeping, financially. Whereas my honkin' old one-ton cargo van is fit to go for another quarter million miles, and who cares if it ain't pretty? I can have a block party inside the car!
    The battery and its materials can be recycled. Even with a heavy battery, its still more efficient than your car. Hybrids even with a large battery have been proven to be more efficient than a regular car.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Your failure to understand my discussion isn't a failure on my part to explain. I'm quite articulate. You've missed key words and you need to read the lessons again until you understand them.
    I didn't say I didn't understand it. I said I don't know how much difference it would make to answer based on your views. You should know that without government environmental protections, the EPA, FDA etc. you probably wouldn't be living/breathing/eating fine and probably be walking around glowing green. Of course you will take the advantages of such government regulations in protecting your health, but will take any opportunity to knock the government and such regulation.
    Last edited by Opteron; 08-21-10 at 05:28 AM.

  10. #40
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    Re: A tax credit for a product means no one wants to buy it

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Too ignorant to spell someone's screen name correctly?

    I'm fully aware that carnot efficiency is an idealization. It's kinda stressed in thermodynamics and heat transfer courses in college

    People use degrees rankine because they're also using BTU's, foot-pound-force, and good old g-sub-c.

    It's called engineering in the English system. And if you start with temperatures in Fahrenheit, their absolute temperatures are in rankine. It's not hard.

    Real engineers used to use it all the time.

    Ain't a spacecraft in American built to metric standards who's engineers aren't discussing the tensile ultimate allowable of Aluminum Alloy 6061-T6 as 42 ksi, and not some figure in megapascals.
    Thanks for the enlightening discussion. I apologize about the slip up with the name. I still prefer kelvin if I have a choice.

    I'll ask the guys at work what they use now adays, don't really know since I'm a water resources guy myslef.
    Last edited by drz-400; 08-21-10 at 05:25 AM.

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