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Religion (not spirituality) has Done More Harm than Good?

Religion (not spirituality) has Done More Harm than Good

  • Total voters
    47
DrunkenAsparagus said:
And what things would happen if people didn't have a God to compel them to be moral?
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I think morality is purely related to human nature and social construct - not religion.

You can be moral/or immoral without religion. . .just as someone can be moral/immoral *with* religion (as is evident by crimes of various degrees committed by clergy, etc).

If you used religion *only* as a guide to morality you'll be **** up a creek - many religions can't agree on what is 'moral' and 'right' - as is evident by all the examples I've given in this thread. . . but there are many other examples that don't even touch on social-stigmas and sins (like murder, rape, etc)

Did you know that in the Weslyan Church dancing is disgraceful and immoral - so my parents discouraged us from doing it - completely.
But in many other Christian-nominations dancing is fine and even encouraged (group dance night, etc).
So when my Dad transferred from the Weslyan Church to the Methodist Church - he then had to explain to us all the different things we now could do (or couldn't do) in order to cleave to the Church's decision of what was 'morally acceptable' for the flock.

Isn't that just the stupidest damn thing? Two different nominations of the same faith claiming that things are immoral/moral at the same time.

:shrug:

If religion had more of a hold we'd even be more confused as a society - so, no, I don't look to any faith or religion to tell me what's moral or immoral. Certain things are inherently unacceptable regardless of what religions you believe/don't believe in - because human nature and society says so.

But, even then, you can look at different societies and cultures and come away with differences in morality - like family constructs (what to permit your kids to do: drink or don't drink) . . . is it acceptable to be nude in front of your children? (nudists VS non-nudists) . . . and so on.
 
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It is true that Christianity, Islam and other Great Religions introduced a higher level of morality into very immoral societies.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
The Children's Crusade would not have happened.
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You mean this thing?

The Children's Crusade is the name given to a variety of fictional and factual events which happened in 1212 that combine some or all of these elements: visions by a French or German boy; an intention to peacefully convert Muslims in the Holy Land to Christianity; bands of children marching to Italy; and children being sold into slavery.

A study published in 1977[1] cast doubt on the existence of these events and many historians now believe[2] that they were not (or not primarily) children but multiple bands of "wandering poor" in Germany and France, some of whom tried to reach the Holy Land and others who never intended to do so. Early versions of events, of which there are many variations told over the centuries, are largely apocryphal.
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How is this a tragedy?

The Spanish Inquisition et al would not have happened (torturing and condemning to death people for not converting to Catholicism)
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That's almost certainly untrue. Again, the fact that something was done using religion as an excuse does not mean it was done because of religion.

"Various motives have been proposed for the monarchs' decision to fund the Inquisition such as increasing political authority, weakening opposition, suppressing conversos,, profiting from confiscation of the property of convicted heretics, reducing social tensions and protecting the kingdom from the danger of a fifth column."
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Spanish Inquisition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


. . . .9/11 happened purely because of people's religious issues.
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No, it was absolutely not the sole factor. There were plenty of factors that led up to 9/11, including our foreign policy.

The Catholic/Protestant conflicts wouldn't have happened.
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How do you figure? You don't think there were enough reasons for countries/cultures to fight each other without religion?

israel and Iran might not hate eachother so deeply.
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Says who?

And people wouldn't be rioting and having hissy fits - and killing others in the process - just because an image of Mohammad was depicted in a magazine :shrug:
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Instead they'd be rioting and having hissy fits because a cartoon made fun of their president, or their culture, or their favorite animal.

If you want to believe that these things would have happened without their religions then that's you're opinion - I see that religion was a the hardcore reason and pure center of the issue.
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And I think that's a very narrow view of events.
 
The Giant Noodle said:
Religion (not spirituality) has Done More Harm than Good?

The wars, the murders.....
The hope given, finding a better way to live......
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I think there's a tough metric in "good". How do you measure how much good it has caused? I think the harm is very easy to see. Religion has been used for war and oppression and persecution. Yet it can also make a lot of people feel better about themselves, and surely that is good. It can give good foundations to morality and family, and some people need that. It can provide social outlets and some people desire that. I think there is a lot of good religion itself can do. Now much of the bad stuff religion has caused was caused under theocracies. And the mixing of state and church will almost always cause the distortion and manipulation of the religion by the State to justify its actions.

Theocracy has caused well more harm than good.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
I think morality is purely related to human nature and social construct - not religion.

You can be moral/or immoral without religion. . .just as someone can be moral/immoral *with* religion (as is evident by crimes of various degrees committed by clergy, etc).

If you used religion *only* as a guide to morality you'll be **** up a creek - many religions can't agree on what is 'moral' and 'right' - as is evident by all the examples I've given in this thread. . . but there are many other examples that don't even touch on social-stigmas and sins (like murder, rape, etc)
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I'm aware of that, but many people are only held back due to some religion telling them it's wrong.

Aunt Spiker said:
Did you know that in the Weslyan Church dancing is disgraceful and immoral - so my parents discouraged us from doing it - completely.
But in many other Christian-nominations dancing is fine and even encouraged (group dance night, etc).
So when my Dad transferred from the Weslyan Church to the Methodist Church - he then had to explain to us all the different things we now could do (or couldn't do) in order to cleave to the Church's decision of what was 'morally acceptable' for the flock.


Isn't that just the stupidest damn thing? Two different nominations of the same faith claiming that things are immoral/moral at the same time.

:shrug:
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And what's morally acceptable changes from person to person.

Aunt Spiker said:
If religion had more of a hold we'd even be more confused as a society - so, no, I don't look to any faith or religion to tell me what's moral or immoral. Certain things are inherently unacceptable regardless of what religions you believe/don't believe in - because human nature and society says so.
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Maybe, or maybe not. Religion helps many people find purpose. They'd be lost and more confused without a God. You can't tell, which makes this whole debate stupid.

Aunt Spiker said:
But, even then, you can look at different societies and cultures and come away with differences in morality - like family constructs (what to permit your kids to do: drink or don't drink) . . . is it acceptable to be nude in front of your children? (nudists VS non-nudists) . . . and so on.
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I don't see how this makes religion a bad thing. Even with these differences, there are some constants. Murder is bad, stealing is bad, ect. Yeah, people with religion have different morals. So do atheists. No one has the same exact view on morality.
 
Could some of you be any deeper in denial? Don't try to convince me that religion is a 100% pure and positive thing because it's not - if you're convinced it is then you're blind and foolish.

All I'm seeing from the religious-protectors: religion is under attack - throw logic and common sense to the wind and protect Religion at all costs!

Funny - that's the SAME mind-frame that leads to religious atrocities and conflicts to begin with.

Find me a religion that has NO blemishes, faults or quandaries of the foul and heinous nature what so ever and I'll consider your view.
 
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Aunt Spiker said:
Could some of you be any deeper in denial? Don't try to convince me that religion is a 100% pure and positive thing because it's not - if you're convinced it is then you're blind and foolish.
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No one said that. Some of us are just defending religion against those who disagree with us.

Aunt Spiker said:
All I'm seeing from the religious-protectors: religion is under attack - throw logic and common sense to the wind and protect Religion at all costs!
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Where did I do this?

Aunt Spiker said:
Funny - that's the SAME mind-frame that leads to religious atrocities and conflicts to begin with.
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This mindset affects non-believers just as much.

Aunt Spiker said:
Find me a religion that has NO blemishes, faults or quandaries of the foul and heinous nature what so ever and I'll consider your view.
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Show me an ideology, any ideology that lacks this.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
Could some of you be any deeper in denial? Don't try to convince me that religion is a 100% pure and positive thing because it's not - if you're convinced it is then you're blind and foolish.

All I'm seeing from the religious-protectors: religion is under attack - throw logic and common sense to the wind and protect Religion at all costs!

Funny - that's the SAME mind-frame that leads to religious atrocities and conflicts to begin with.

Find me a religion that has NO blemishes, faults or quandaries of the foul and heinous nature what so ever and I'll consider your view.
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I've yet to see a single person who has said anything even resembling any of this. Why not address what has actually been posted rather than the strawmen you'd like to see?
 
Catz Part Deux said:
I don't have a god that compels me to be moral, and I still manage not to kill people almost every single day. Shockers!
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And I've already sated how I know a bunch of moral atheists, shocker!! The point is that some people do get their morality from religion, and it does make them a better person.
 
I think people who get their morality from religion get it from the people they've surrounded themselves with rather than the religion itself. Just look at the number of rules in religions that their followers DON'T obey.
 
CompSciGuy said:
I think people who get their morality from religion get it from the people they've surrounded themselves with rather than the religion itself. Just look at the number of rules in religions that their followers DON'T obey.
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Atheists go against their morality at times too. Yes, nobody follows every little rule, but religion gives many people a purpose to morality.
 
Damn. The poll numbers on this are way more balanced than I'd have predicted, given the subject.
 
The Giant Noodle said:
Religion (not spirituality) has Done More Harm than Good?

The wars, the murders.....
The hope given, finding a better way to live......
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Religion is too often used as shackles for the ignorant, and justification for the acts of the unjust.
 
tlmorg02 said:
Religion is too often used as shackles for the ignorant, and justification for the acts of the unjust.
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It's just the most convenient excuse. Robspierre, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot didn't need the God excuse.
 
Jucon said:
Religions have created good people with good morals... even if few religious people choose to ignore the principles of their faith. People can disagree with some of their opinions, but almost all of the religious people I know have their hearts in the right place.
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i have to say i disagree........religion doesn't create morals. almost all people i known have their hearts in the right place, religious or not.
 
DrunkenAsparagus said:
It's just the most convenient excuse. Robspierre, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot didn't need the God excuse.
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No, they were a backlash of anti-religion that resulted. For centuries leaders told their "people" that they were poor and oppressed because God wanted them to be and that they were in charge because God wanted them to be. Eventually that story loses its luster.
 
DrunkenAsparagus said:
Atheists go against their morality at times too. Yes, nobody follows every little rule, but religion gives many people a purpose to morality.
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I tend to think that morality that is derived from logic and caring about other people is superior to morality that is derived from "If I don't do X, I will be punished in the afterlife."

The problem is that much religious morality is "morality" only in their eyes -- some religions believe it is immoral to let a woman show her face, or it is immoral to be gay, or that it is immoral to eat certain foods and so on.
 
tlmorg02 said:
No, they were a backlash of anti-religion that resulted. For centuries leaders told their "people" that they were poor and oppressed because God wanted them to be and that they were in charge because God wanted them to be. Eventually that story loses its luster.
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So these people just used an excuse other than "God wants you to do it" to do horrible things.

Groucho said:
I tend to think that morality that is derived from logic and caring about other people is superior to morality that is derived from "If I don't do X, I will be punished in the afterlife."
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Even as a religious person I agree, but it's still morality.

Groucho said:
The problem is that much religious morality is "morality" only in their eyes -- some religions believe it is immoral to let a woman show her face, or it is immoral to be gay, or that it is immoral to eat certain foods and so on.
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Yeah, but there are some constants. Murder is bad, stealing is bad, ect.
 
So these people just used an excuse other than "God wants you to do it" to do horrible things.
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Yes, but they gained power doing the same thing the religious institutions did, played on the passions and ignorance of those they subjugated. That is my main point, extremism in any form usually leads to abuses of power and only serve to oppress and hurt those they claim to speak for.
 
tlmorg02 said:
Yes, but they gained power doing the same thing the religious institutions did, played on the passions and ignorance of those they subjugated. That is my main point, extremism in any form usually leads to abuses of power and only serve to oppress and hurt those they claim to speak for.
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Well of course, but the point of thread is whether religion causes more harm than no religion or not. There is no way to really tell. I just assumed that was what you were talking about.
 
DrunkenAsparagus said:
Well of course, but the point of thread is whether religion causes more harm than no religion or not. There is no way to really tell. I just assumed that was what you were talking about.
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Well, while there are no real measures there are certainly thousands if not millions of examples of the harm caused.
 
tlmorg02 said:
Well, while there are no real measures there are certainly thousands if not millions of examples of the harm caused.
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And billions that were helped.
 
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