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Religion (not spirituality) has Done More Harm than Good?

Religion (not spirituality) has Done More Harm than Good


  • Total voters
    47
Pretend that there was no such thing as religion. Do you actually think that none of those things would have happened?

The fact that wars and atrocities were committed in the name of religion doesn't mean that they would never have happened in the absence of religion.

No - I don't believe the Children's War would have happened without Religion.
Nor would the Spanish Inquisition and the Great Crusades. What about the face off between Middle Eastern Countries? Would much of that be going on right now? What about 9/11 - would that have happened? What about Cults - all in the name of a twisted 'god' belief and worhsip? Would we be defending Israel so much if we weren't a "Christian nation" (according to many people's beliefs - not mine).

Sure - wars happen - right now people are beign tortured and killed and religion and God doesn't factor it. But that's doesn't mean that *countless* people have met their end because someone was on a religious-trip and trying to spread the good word through their proclaimed Jihad.



Wait - are you saying that you believe that a supernatural being actually killed all those people via things like floods?

If so, then it would seem pretty foolish to be saying religion is useless.
If not, then it obviously wasn't the fault of a religion that those people died.

Religious people believe it happened (I don't)
And they worship the God/Gods who did such attrocities and accept it - and even defend said beliefs and actions.

You know why God killed all the children in the flood? (I asked this in another forum years back) - the Defendors of God said "Because they were *really really bad people*"

Mmmmhmm.

Religion breeds stupidity, that's for damn sure. . . and Foster's an acceptance of "kill all" as long as "God does it it's ok!" - which is why it's so dangerous.

Of course crap would happened without religion - of course it would. But you cannot deny that people all too often *use* religion as support, a reason, an excuse and as their 'purpose' far too often - even if it's just a bunch of bull**** to them, personally.
 
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Have bad things been done in the name of religion? Of course, but to blame religion misses the point. Religion has been such a dominant part of society in human history, so it's bound to be the most convenient excuse. Atheists do pretty bad things as well. Trying determine which world, a believing one or a non-believing one, would lead to more murder, torture, conquest, suffering, and man's inhumanity's to his fellow man is pointless. Both people are capable of being complete dicks. Get off your damn high horses.
 
Have bad things been done in the name of religion? Of course, but to blame religion misses the point. Religion has been such a dominant part of society in human history, so it's bound to be the most convenient excuse. Atheists do pretty bad things as well. Trying determine which world, a believing one or a non-believing one, would lead to more murder, torture, conquest, suffering, and man's inhumanity's to his fellow man is pointless. Both people are capable of being complete dicks. Get off your damn high horses.

What if they ride on little horses? :mrgreen:
 
Have bad things been done in the name of religion? Of course, but to blame religion misses the point. Religion has been such a dominant part of society in human history, so it's bound to be the most convenient excuse. Atheists do pretty bad things as well. Trying determine which world, a believing one or a non-believing one, would lead to more murder, torture, conquest, suffering, and man's inhumanity's to his fellow man is pointless. Both people are capable of being complete dicks. Get off your damn high horses.

Funny - I see it the opposite. . . I see that the world is wretched because it's pocked full of 'my God vs your God' issues. . . and would like the god factor to be removed.

Why do you think that a beliefless place would bring more harm into the equation?
Why do you equate peace and morality *with* religious beliefs? (here's where we (religious and non-religious people) differ - Some non-believers see that people can live peacefully and be moral without God, many religious people dont').
 
No - I don't believe the Children's War would have happened without Religion.
Nor would the Spanish Inquisition and the Great Crusades. What about the face off between Middle Eastern Countries? Would much of that be going on right now? What about 9/11 - would that have happened? What about Cults - all in the name of a twisted 'god' belief and worhsip? Would we be defending Israel so much if we weren't a "Christian nation" (according to many people's beliefs - not mine).

Sure - wars happen - right now people are beign tortured and killed and religion and God doesn't factor it. But that's doesn't mean that *countless* people have met their end because someone was on a religious-trip and trying to spread the good word through their proclaimed Jihad.

The point that I'm making is that in the vast majority of "religious" conflicts that have occurred, the religious division was merely one of many factors involved. And again, as I noted earlier, even in the absence of all "religion," there would be something else taking its place.


Religious people believe it happened (I don't)
And they worship the God/Gods who did such attrocities and accept it - and even defend said beliefs and actions.

You're missing my point. You're placing those deaths at the feet of religion. If they didn't happen, then that doesn't make any sense.

You know why God killed all the children in the flood? (I asked this in another forum years back) - the Defendors of God said "Because they were *really really bad people*"

Mmmmhmm.

So why not go tell those people how dumb they are?

Religion breeds stupidity, that's for damn sure. . . and Foster's an acceptance of "kill all" as long as "God does it it's ok!" - which is why it's so dangerous.

On the long list of things that breed stupidity in this country, I don't think religion is anywhere near the top.

Of course crap would happened without religion - of course it would. But you cannot deny that people all too often *use* religion as support, a reason, an excuse and as their 'purpose' far too often - even if it's just a bunch of bull**** to them, personally.

I'm having a hard time understanding how you're admitting this and still making your earlier argument. As you yourself acknowledge, many of the bad people doing things in the name of religion are just using religion as a shield for their underlying bad desires. Thus, it stands to reason that even in a world without religion, those same bad things would happen. Given that, it makes no sense to blame religion for those bad things.
 
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Well since that will never happen anytime soon... I guess we'll never know.


Seriously? You think that people are nice only because of religion? That there are no evil people who believe in God? That there are no nice people who are atheists?
 
Funny - I see it the opposite. . . I see that the world is wretched because it's pocked full of 'my God vs your God' issues. . . and would like the god factor to be removed.

And you have no way to prove that. People always have a tendency to divide themselves into groups, and create friction with other groups. Religion is just one of these groups. If everyone stopped believing in God tomorrow, all those things I mentioned would continue. You don't need God to be in an "us vs them" mindset. Just look at the Partisan Politics section.

Why do you think that a beliefless place would bring more harm into the equation?

When did I say that?

Why do you equate peace and morality *with* religious beliefs? (here's where we (religious and non-religious people) differ - Some non-believers see that people can live peacefully and be moral without God, many religious people dont').

What? Did you read my post? I have many friends who are non-believers and they're really no less moral than my religious friends. I didn't say any different.
 
I voted "don't know".

How can you measure something like "harm" and "good" and compare them? Is an act of harm to one have the same balance as the act of good to one? If so then how much good has been done? How much harm? Remember, in peoples memories, harm lasts far longer than good. Also are we talking about ALL the religions? Just one? A few? With such a vague question with no parameters given you can't really give an honest answer other than "don't know".
 
Pretend that there was no such thing as religion. Do you actually think that none of those things would have happened?

The fact that wars and atrocities were committed in the name of religion doesn't mean that they would never have happened in the absence of religion.

But they were committed int hte name of religion, and that is the point of the thread. If there was no religion then the issue would be moot, right?
 
But they were committed int hte name of religion, and that is the point of the thread. If there was no religion then the issue would be moot, right?

My point is that even in the absence of religion, they would have been committed in the name of "honor" or "tribe" or "nation" or "culture" or something else.
 
My point is that even in the absence of religion, they would have been committed in the name of "honor" or "tribe" or "nation" or "culture" or something else.

Oh, I get you. Your thinking abstractly and you are totally correct. But, that is not the case, right. Religion exists.
So, wars and murders committed in the name of religion are just as valid as wars committed in the name racial superiority.
Ultimately, like you suggest, the whole idea of blaming religion is silly since people would just kill in the name of _______ instead.
 
My point is that even in the absence of religion, they would have been committed in the name of "honor" or "tribe" or "nation" or "culture" or something else.

Some things - purely and only - happened because of one's (or many's) belief in their God - and that God sent them to do it (or whatever). Many - many many - attrocious acts have been committed ONLY because of religion - and nothing else. With "God's message" quite a few things wouldn't have occured - it's just that simple.

Not to say, though, that religion is *all bad* - but it is undeniably horrific when people truly believe that God wants them to kill all the "unsaved" in the act of some type of purification or something.

So - you're asking us to weigh the good against the bad. I did - and deduced that the bad outweighs the good.
 
Some things - purely and only - happened because of one's (or many's) belief in their God - and that God sent them to do it (or whatever). Many - many many - attrocious acts have been committed ONLY because of religion - and nothing else. With "God's message" quite a few things wouldn't have occured - it's just that simple.

Such as?

I just don't know how you could possibly know this. Again, if some psycho murders his entire family because he believed that Jesus wanted him to, the same thing would be likely to happen even in some alternate universe without religion.
 
To the OP...

Religion doesn't harm people, humans harm people.

If people actually followed the basic tenets of their faith, we probably wouldn't have so much violence, greed, and abuse in the world.

But people are hypocrites.
 
To the OP...

Religion doesn't harm people, humans harm people.

If people actually followed the basic tenets of their faith, we probably wouldn't have so much violence, greed, and abuse in the world.

But people are hypocrites.

unless their religion called for certain punishments to certain crimes, like killing children who hit their parents, in whoch case, some of the tenets are best left ignored.
 
unless their religion called for certain punishments to certain crimes, like killing children who hit their parents, in whoch case, some of the tenets are best left ignored.

Still... it is humans that make the choice. You cannot blame the book if your own hands are doing the killing. The book can't make you do anything.
 
The only good I see from religion is charitable work and that is about it, I mean they have certainly made a difference with their work though. However we don't draw our morals from religion, I'm pretty sure most of the stuff we know is wrong is just from social and natural standards. Speaking in a Darwin sense it isn't beneficiary to our species to kill people so naturally we shun murder.

The bad of religion though, well it's pretty rough but Christianity seems to have been over that hill and is coming down. Still it won't be long before Atheism really explodes in America, It already kind of is. It's already doing so in Europe and hopefully will do so in the U.S.
 
The only good I see from religion is charitable work and that is about it, I mean they have certainly made a difference with their work though. However we don't draw our morals from religion, I'm pretty sure most of the stuff we know is wrong is just from social and natural standards. Speaking in a Darwin sense it isn't beneficiary to our species to kill people so naturally we shun murder.

that's untrue, in purely darwinistic terms, murder is good for our species as it weeds out the people who are unable to defend themselves adequately, and therefore weaker.
 
Does your church house homeless people or spend 24 hours a day counseling suicidal people?

As far as pastoral work goes, it's a good gig for someone who can find a gullible herd to support him/her. Most of the pastors in my area, with a decent-sized congregation, make far more money than I do.

For the record: I'd have similar problems with a teen center whose building was only used 10% of the time.

There is no need to be bitter.
 
I think most/many people are generally prone to be manipulated and to be followers.

I think most/many people care more about self interest then other interest.

I think there are definitely individuals in this world who have "evil" or extremely selfish and destructive views that are also highly manipulative.

I think by and large, most of the "attrocities" that have occured with regards to religion have occured in part due to individuals in that third group using it simply as a tool or a justification to then use those in the first group. I think for many of those situations abscent religion something else similar would've likely been used to spur a similar situation to occur.

I think by and large, much of the good that religion has helped cause...rather out of inspiration, fear, guilt, or enlightenment...goes against basic human nature found in group two and as such I beleive would have been far less likely to have occured sans religion.

This does not touch on the good it does in regards to peace of mind for individuals, nor the harm in the past of scientific advancement, but I think most of the issues fitting into both spectrums are dealt with with the above.

So by and large, I think religion in general has done more good than harm.
 
Such as?

I just don't know how you could possibly know this. Again, if some psycho murders his entire family because he believed that Jesus wanted him to, the same thing would be likely to happen even in some alternate universe without religion.

The Children's Crusade would not have happened. The Spanish Inquisition et al would not have happened (torturing and condemning to death people for not converting to Catholicism). . . .9/11 happened purely because of people's religious issues. The Catholic/Protestant conflicts wouldn't have happened. israel and Iran might not hate eachother so deeply. And people wouldn't be rioting and having hissy fits - and killing others in the process - just because an image of Mohammad was depicted in a magazine :shrug:

If you want to believe that these things would have happened without their religions then that's you're opinion - I see that religion was a the hardcore reason and pure center of the issue.
 
The Children's Crusade would not have happened. The Spanish Inquisition et al would not have happened (torturing and condemning to death people for not converting to Catholicism). . . .9/11 happened purely because of people's religious issues. The Catholic/Protestant conflicts wouldn't have happened. israel and Iran might not hate eachother so deeply. And people wouldn't be rioting and having hissy fits - and killing others in the process - just because an image of Mohammad was depicted in a magazine :shrug:

If you want to believe that these things would have happened without their religions then that's you're opinion - I see that religion was a the hardcore reason and pure center of the issue.

And what things would happen if people didn't have a God to compel them to be moral?
 
I'll agree with that.

I will also say that most of these people would have their hearts in the right place even without religion. If there were no religion in the world, nice people would still be nice people.
I do not know about that....Do we have a direct tie-in with religion and violence?
Or is it just fear and ignorance ?
 
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