View Poll Results: Religion (not spirituality) has Done More Harm than Good

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  • YES! More Harm than Good

    22 38.60%
  • NO! More good than harm!

    21 36.84%
  • Other / I dont know

    11 19.30%
  • Shut up Noodle! I AM God!!!

    3 5.26%
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Thread: Religion (not spirituality) has Done More Harm than Good?

  1. #51
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    Re: Religion (not spirituality) has Done More Harm than Good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    "a few" is an understatement - the number of people, priests, minister, bishops and other leaders who have tortured, murdered, waged war and everything else "in the name of God" leaves a path of destruction that goes on throughout history - quite the body count.
    Pretend that there was no such thing as religion. Do you actually think that none of those things would have happened?

    The fact that wars and atrocities were committed in the name of religion doesn't mean that they would never have happened in the absence of religion.

    Oddly - almost every single God and Goddess is directly responsible for mass deaths (like the Flood in Genesis) at the same time.
    Wait - are you saying that you believe that a supernatural being actually killed all those people via things like floods?

    If so, then it would seem pretty foolish to be saying religion is useless.
    If not, then it obviously wasn't the fault of a religion that those people died.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  2. #52
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    Re: Religion (not spirituality) has Done More Harm than Good?

    To add my 2 cents about pastors. My dad is a pastor, he has always worked in some kind of ministry position (like running homeless shelters, working as a chaplain in a prison, pastoring). There is no money in this. Yeah there may be the 10 millionaire preachers, but 99% of them don't make much at all. My dad is a full time minister and gets paid very little. It's a full time job for churches of a nominal size (like 100+). Preparing a sermon isn't easy. My dad has hundreds of theology books that he reads, studies, and takes what he learns to create a sermon. He makes 3 sermons a week, counsels people, makes hospital visits, does funerals/weddings, ministers to church members, and many other things that people don't think of. One thing is certain, my dad is in the ministry because he wants to serve God and people, not for money. I know many pastors like this, and the majority make very little.
    Last edited by digsbe; 08-15-10 at 03:09 AM.
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  3. #53
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    Re: Religion (not spirituality) has Done More Harm than Good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Be honest. The average church building is incredibly under-utilized. The pastor's offices may be used Tues-Friday, but the rest of the building is empty on Monday, Tuesday, all day Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and most Saturdays.

    Even on Sunday, the building is probably only used 5 hours a day.

    Compare that to the average Boys & Girls Club, which runs 8 a.m. until 10 p.m., Monday - Saturday, or even the average office building.
    Sorry. I gotta disagree. "Incredibly under-utilized" is a subjective term, but did you read the list of groups who regularly use our building? Most evenings someone is using our building for something.
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    Re: Religion (not spirituality) has Done More Harm than Good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    Sorry. I gotta disagree. "Incredibly under-utilized" is a subjective term, but did you read the list of groups who regularly use our building? Most evenings someone is using our building for something.
    If that's the case, that's really good, and your congregation is pretty different from the norm. There are about 6 churches near my house. 90% of the time, their parking lots are empty.

  5. #55
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    Re: Religion (not spirituality) has Done More Harm than Good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I asked you first. You believe they should be paid, please feel free to justify this position using scripture.
    lolwut

    Where does the bible say that priests should shake your hand when you exit the church?
    Where does the bible say that you shouldn't be able to hand out burritos instead of communion wafers?
    Where does the bible say that mass shouldn't be conducted in the nude?

    The fact that the bible doesn't specifically say "priests shall be paid at the rate of 35,000 per annum indexed to prime plus 1% as published in the daily WSJ" doesn't mean that they cannot be paid.

    The problem is that I don't believe that. I do tend to believe that most religious people are deluded by the notion that they need to put themselves through a huge amount of rigamarole in order to connect to God. And, if there is a God, I don't believe that's what he/she intended.

    How exactly would you like me to couch that sentiment in order to avoid hurting your feelings?
    Again, I don't understand why you think that your tendency to make sweeping, unsupported generalizations is somehow "hurting my feelings." I'm well aware of your bitterness toward religion, and I don't expect that you'll be singing the praises of any religious practices anytime soon. It's like when I try to get a partisan poster to acknowledge something good about the left or right so that we can work off of that common ground to have a productive discussion. If they do, great, if not, whatever. All I was hoping for is that you could see the absurdity of your statement and try to have a decent discussion. It's clear that that's not going to happen.
    Last edited by RightinNYC; 08-15-10 at 03:17 AM.
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    Re: Religion (not spirituality) has Done More Harm than Good?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    To add my 2 cents about pastors. My dad is a pastor, he has always worked in some kind of ministry position (like running homeless shelters, working as a chaplain in a prison, pastoring). There is no money in this. Yeah there may be the 10 millionaire preachers, but 99% of them don't make much at all. My dad is a full time minister and gets paid very little. It's a full time job for churches of a nominal size (like 100+). Preparing a sermon isn't easy. My dad has hundreds of theology books that he reads, studies, and takes what he learns to create a sermon. He makes 3 sermons a week, counsels people, makes hospital visits, does funerals/weddings, ministers to church members, and many other things that people don't think of. One thing is certain, my dad is in the ministry because he wants to serve God and people, not for money. I know many pastors like this, and the majority make very little.
    Question, Digsbe. Why do you think that God made the path to him so difficult that it requires a religious doctorate to understand and explain it? WHy does your dad need an entire library full of theological books to understand the bible?

  7. #57
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    Re: Religion (not spirituality) has Done More Harm than Good?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    To add my 2 cents about pastors. My dad is a pastor, he has always worked in some kind of ministry position (like running homeless shelters, working as a chaplain in a prison, pastoring). There is no money in this. Yeah there may be the 10 millionaire preachers, but 99% of them don't make much at all. My dad is a full time minister and gets paid very little. It's a full time job for churches of a nominal size (like 100+). Preparing a sermon isn't easy. My dad has hundreds of theology books that he reads, studies, and takes what he learns to create a sermon. He makes 3 sermons a week, counsels people, makes hospital visits, does funerals/weddings, ministers to church members, and many other things that people don't think of. One thing is certain, my dad is in the ministry because he wants to serve God and people, not for money. I know many pastors like this, and the majority make very little.
    I concur. Our pastor's make a comfortable living, but by no means are they getting rich off their salaries. And I fully believe they should be paid. They put in a lot of time doing the things you mentioned, not mention overseeing the many different ministries within the church and making sure they are running smoothly, and then meeting with the various boards that run the church as well.

    Let me put it this way. I know exactly what our pastors make. Down to the penny. And I wouldn't take the job for twice what they get paid. Because I also have a fairly good idea of the hours they work, the responsibilities they are entrusted with, and criticism they are open to as leaders. No thanks.
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  8. #58
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    Re: Religion (not spirituality) has Done More Harm than Good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Question, Digsbe. Why do you think that God made the path to him so difficult that it requires a religious doctorate to understand and explain it?
    My friend's dad doesn't have a degree and he pastors. My dad doesn't have a doctorate either. The things they typically study is Hebrew, Greek, hermeneutics, the culture of the Bible, and Biblical history that aids in understanding and interpreting the Bible. Consider God as the employer of pastors. Wouldn't you want to employ a teacher who knows what they are talking about? Would you not want to train a teacher?
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    Re: Religion (not spirituality) has Done More Harm than Good?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    The fact that the bible doesn't specifically say "priests shall be paid at the rate of 35,000 per annum indexed to prime plus 1% as published in the daily WSJ" doesn't mean that they cannot be paid.
    So, what you're saying is that you're not aware of any biblical justification for a paid ministerial staff?

    Duly noted.

    Again, I don't understand why you think that your tendency to make sweeping, unsupported generalizations is somehow "hurting my feelings." I'm well aware of your bitterness toward religion, and I don't expect that you'll be singing the praises of any religious practices anytime soon. It's like when I try to get a partisan poster to acknowledge something good about the left or right so that we can work off of that common ground to have a productive discussion. All I was hoping for is that you could see the absurdity of your statement and try to have a decent discussion. It's clear that that's not going to happen.
    Do you not understand that almost every response you've made to me has had some kind of personal zinger attached to it? You need a brick of salt to read my posts. I have issues. I demonize religion in every post. I'm bitter.

    Where have I made personal comments like this about you, and why do you feel entitled to do this, and then complain that the discussion isn't "decent?"

    I'm pretty clear that if I started dishing these comments back to you, I'd get gigged for it.

    So, do you want to have a civil discussion, that doesn't include personal aspersions, or not?

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    Re: Religion (not spirituality) has Done More Harm than Good?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    My friend's dad doesn't have a degree and he pastors. My dad doesn't have a doctorate either. The things they typically study is Hebrew, Greek, hermeneutics, the culture of the Bible, and Biblical history that aids in understanding and interpreting the Bible. Consider God as the employer of pastors. Wouldn't you want to employ a teacher who knows what they are talking about? Would you not want to train a teacher?
    Why do you think that God would make this so complicated that people have to be "trained" in order to properly explain it? Is God deliberately trying to make things difficult for humans? Wouldn't a merciful God make it as easy as possible for the majority of humans to find him?

    Just questions I have.

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