View Poll Results: FDR's Greatest Mistakes

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60. You may not vote on this poll
  • Seizing people's gold and devaluing currency by 42%

    17 28.33%
  • Outlawing personal ownership of gold

    18 30.00%
  • Huge tax increases

    16 26.67%
  • Tax withholding

    13 21.67%
  • Creation of world's greatest Ponzi scheme

    20 33.33%
  • Minimum wage

    13 21.67%
  • Massive eminent domain seizures (TVA, Oak Ridge, etc.)

    14 23.33%
  • Agitating Japanese into bombing Pearl Harbor

    16 26.67%
  • Incarcerating Japanese-American citizens into concentration camps

    36 60.00%
  • Other (specify)

    15 25.00%
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Thread: FDR's Greatist Blunder

  1. #111
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    Re: FDR's Greatist Blunder

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    This doesn't prove anything. You have yet to provide a definition of "just" compensation. The definition that you are trying to use right completely ignores any truth to the subjective theory of value.
    Because it's the legal definition, and that's what matters in this case, as we are discussing a legal document. This is what the phrase has always meant in US law, this is what the phrase meant to the people who wrote those laws. You can have your little pet theories, but they don't mean jack to anyone else.
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

  2. #112
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    Re: FDR's Greatist Blunder

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    Because it's the legal definition, and that's what matters in this case, as we are discussing a legal document. This is what the phrase has always meant in US law, this is what the phrase meant to the people who wrote those laws. You can have your little pet theories, but they don't mean jack to anyone else.
    They would mean jack to the people whose property is seized via eminent domain because they lose out big time on the deal unless they would have accepted that money voluntarily. I mean, if market value was just compensation, then why do we have so many examples of people getting more than market value for their property when the government takes it?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  3. #113
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    Re: FDR's Greatist Blunder

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    They would mean jack to the people whose property is seized via eminent domain because they lose out big time on the deal unless they would have accepted that money voluntarily. I mean, if market value was just compensation, then why do we have so many examples of people getting more than market value for their property when the government takes it?
    Wait... what's your point here... last I saw you were arguing that it's only just compensation if they voluntarily accept the price... now you're blathering on about something else entirely.
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

  4. #114
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    Re: FDR's Greatist Blunder

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    There's just one problem with the idea though. The government pays you the market rate for that home. Here's the catch, if that money was worth what you value the house minus the labor of moving, you would sell yourself. As such, the property owner gets trampled upon by the government because the property owner NECESSARILY takes a loss. There is no way around this: the government always undercompensates the property owner.

    You wouldn't be able to sell it yourself if you couldn't find a buyer. With building going on around the property, you're pretty much guaranteed that you won't.


    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    They would mean jack to the people whose property is seized via eminent domain because they lose out big time on the deal unless they would have accepted that money voluntarily. I mean, if market value was just compensation, then why do we have so many examples of people getting more than market value for their property when the government takes it?
    No one is entitled to more than fair market value. Considering most cases in which ED is evoked doesn't involve people who just bought their homes yesterday, the current FMV is generally higher than what they paid for it (present market excluded). So the gov't provides FMV, the buyer and the deal closes. You can't get much fairer than that.

  5. #115
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    Re: FDR's Greatist Blunder

    Quote Originally Posted by StandUpChuck View Post
    You wouldn't be able to sell it yourself if you couldn't find a buyer. With building going on around the property, you're pretty much guaranteed that you won't.
    If the person can't sell it for the value that they want then they won't sell it. There's no other way around that. The amount that they sell the house for is necessarily equal to or above the value of the home plus the cost of moving.

    No one is entitled to more than fair market value. Considering most cases in which ED is evoked doesn't involve people who just bought their homes yesterday, the current FMV is generally higher than what they paid for it (present market excluded). So the gov't provides FMV, the buyer and the deal closes. You can't get much fairer than that.
    So what if it's more than they paid for it? If I live in a great neighborhood with neighbors I love and a community that I'm a part of, I don't want to move. The home may have a market value of a certain amount, but it's worth way more to me than that. If a businessman came to my home offering market value there's no way I would take it because the home is worth more to me than market value. This part is for you makeout hobo. Just because that businessman offers me market value does not mean I want to take the deal. At a certain point though, the money would be worth losing the community and everything else. However, the market value does not represent my subjective valuation of the home. It is worth much more to me than market value. If, however, market value was worth more than how I value the home and the cost of moving, I would move right away. However, and this is the heart of the issue, if you have to force me to leave, it is because what you are compensating me with is less than the worth that I associate with the home. I lose out big time if you force me to move. And that's the point. Market value cannot be the definition of just compensation because it ignores the subjective value that property owners place on their homes.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  6. #116
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    Re: FDR's Greatist Blunder

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    If the person can't sell it for the value that they want then they won't sell it. There's no other way around that. The amount that they sell the house for is necessarily equal to or above the value of the home plus the cost of moving.



    So what if it's more than they paid for it? If I live in a great neighborhood with neighbors I love and a community that I'm a part of, I don't want to move. The home may have a market value of a certain amount, but it's worth way more to me than that. If a businessman came to my home offering market value there's no way I would take it because the home is worth more to me than market value. This part is for you makeout hobo. Just because that businessman offers me market value does not mean I want to take the deal. At a certain point though, the money would be worth losing the community and everything else. However, the market value does not represent my subjective valuation of the home. It is worth much more to me than market value. If, however, market value was worth more than how I value the home and the cost of moving, I would move right away. However, and this is the heart of the issue, if you have to force me to leave, it is because what you are compensating me with is less than the worth that I associate with the home. I lose out big time if you force me to move. And that's the point. Market value cannot be the definition of just compensation because it ignores the subjective value that property owners place on their homes.
    But it is the definition given by the peple who wrote the 5th amendment, as well as all legal definitions I know of. You can argue that subjective value should be taken into consideration, but all established law disagrees with you. Eminent domain is there as a way for the state to take what it needs for its own projects and purposes. If market value was always "whatever the owners want to get for it", then there is no such thing as eminent domain, there is just the state buying property.
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

  7. #117
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    Re: FDR's Greatist Blunder

    Quote Originally Posted by surrealistpenguin View Post
    I think that his biggest blunder was not joining the war sooner. I think his economic policies were sound. overall
    He wanted to join the war sooner, but there was plenty of domestic opposition to that course of action...
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  8. #118
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    Re: FDR's Greatist Blunder

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    But it is the definition given by the peple who wrote the 5th amendment, as well as all legal definitions I know of. You can argue that subjective value should be taken into consideration, but all established law disagrees with you. Eminent domain is there as a way for the state to take what it needs for its own projects and purposes. If market value was always "whatever the owners want to get for it", then there is no such thing as eminent domain, there is just the state buying property.
    I would argue that there should be no such thing as eminent domain in the form that we know it today. But since just compensation is so vaguely defined, it should raise this legal question that I have been talking about.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  9. #119
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    Re: FDR's Greatist Blunder

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    I would argue that there should be no such thing as eminent domain in the form that we know it today. But since just compensation is so vaguely defined, it should raise this legal question that I have been talking about.
    But what you are talking about isn't eminent domain, it's simply the government buying something.
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

  10. #120
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    Re: FDR's Greatist Blunder

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    But what you are talking about isn't eminent domain, it's simply the government buying something.
    And it's the only way to ensure just compensation.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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