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Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it? (PART II)

Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it? (PART II)


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ernst barkmann;1062330723you [CLAX1911 said:
want the public schools system to instruct children that homosexuality is normal and good.....that's what you want to do and you want to use the power of government to force it on people ,who cannot afford to pay for their child's education out of their own pocket who disagree with your ideas.

You know ernst, I am getting TIRED of you misrepresenting people. NO ONE IS SAYING THAT SCHOOLS SHOULD TEACH THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS GOOD. No one. You keep repeating this falsehood like it is accurate. It isn't. You are making this up. So stop saying it.

As far as teaching that homosexuality is normal, since this is a FACT, schools have the right to teach it. If you believe that it is NOT normal (this does not include the statistical sense), then prove it. If you cannot, then the entire argument that you have been posting for DAYS is completely bogus, refuted, and irrelevant and will be treated as such.

i [ernst barkmann], say force in not the way!...........the school system, should not be in the business of moral behavior, becuase it is not the business of government to teach one's morality, its not a duty of government, so i say leave the marriage, sexuality out of the class rooms all together, and let children be children.

And you, ernst barkmann, are posting irrelevancy and misrepresenting what everyone is saying. You need to actually READ what people write. No one is saying that schools should teach morality. What is really going on here is what I have said is going on. YOU don't like the facts of the matter, so you are complaining about the facts that are being taught. YOU support censorship.
 
again ...how is it you know fact, and others dont who hold a different opinion then you?

You are doing it again... proving that you do not know the difference between fact and opinion. Here, let me demonstrate:

Fact: homosexuality is normal.
Opinion: homosexuality is abnormal.

If you disagree, prove me wrong. And remember, I am not talking statistically.
 
please stop, with the questions for me....trying to force me to prove things.....i am smarter than that......

No, the questions are going to keep coming until you prove your position. You say there are facts on the other side of the issue. This is not true. Homosexuality is normal. That is the fact. If you believe there are facts that say it is not, POST THEM. If you do not, then your position is opinion and not relevant... something that sinks your entire argument.

Post the facts that dispute what I have said or recognize that your position is false.
 
no i am not .......i am not advocating your position or anyone else....and there is only 2 positions....there are no more positions.......one position would be homosexuality is normal, and the other its abnormal....

There are not two positions. There is homosexuality is normal... which is a fact, and homosexuality is not normal, which is NOT A FACT. You want facts taught. If you believe that homosexuality not being normal is a fact, PROVE IT. If you cannot, then your position is invalid, or you are promoting censorship.
 
Actually that is what you are doing to justify homosexuality which is still sin by the way.

I've already shown you several times how it is not. The fact that you do not acknowledge this does not alter the reality that it is not a sin.
 
I feel sorry for him that he won't get to have a mother as well.

And I feel sorry for you that you are SO uneducated on this issue. All research shows that children of gay couples do as well as children of straight couples. So, what we now know is that not only are you uneducated on scripture, but you are uneducated on research on parenting.
 
:shrug: Truth hurts

Except it is not the truth. The truth is that you are woefully uneducated and ignorant on any topic regarding homosexuality. This is evident in every post you make. You have been slaughtered on this issue REPEATEDLY. The truth is that you are held up as an excellent example of who to listen to if one wants misinformation on religion or gay rights. You do my side a service; fence-sitters, listening to you are more likely to think "that guy doesn't know what he's talking about. I'll listen to the other side".
 
Torching them? Oh please.....Instructing in truth is not the same as torching.

We already know that you have no idea what the truth is. This has been proven COUNTLESS times on this forum. Truth is that homosexuality is a normal variant of sexual orientation. Truth is that homosexuality is not a disorder. Truth is that gay parents raise children as well as straight parents. These are all truths, truths that you do not accept because you chose your PERSONAL morality over ACTUAL information. You prefer to lie, distort, and ignore because the truth contradicts your morality, and doing so would cause you too much cognitive dissonance. Everything I have said here are facts that have been proven to you countless times. All you have is your denial and your fearful refusal to be educated on this issue. And what would you do if your child were gay? Emotionally abuse them by forcing untruths on them about themselves.
 
A child with a mom and dad is much much better.

False. A child with two loving supportive parents, regardless of the sexual orientation of the parents turns out best. The fact that you would NOT be supportive of your child because of the FACT of their sexual orientation demonstrates that you would not fit into the category of what would be best.
 
1.)I don't think you caught the jist of my response. I wasn't arguing against gay equality. I was just pointing out that one of the points you made are actually of use. You have a little habit of jumping to conclusions.
For example:

2.) Believing in god WOULD result in a believer to be against the acceptance of what christians call a "sinful" act, registered as a thing as official and closely held by christians such as marriage etc. And so if christians and the bible were correct all along...then god being real is of every relevance.
3.) Again, I wasn't arguing against you on the principles, but simply pointing out that the "slippery slope" principle is a regular occurance in everyday life ("I'll just have one beer", "Just one last bet") and so I don't think you have made a sound point AGAINST the slippery slope argument.
4.) Please re-read what was being said. I agreed it was a silly way to argue against gay equality, but you stated it as wrong because it was a "lie". By no definition is the reason it doesn't work as an argument a lie.
5.) Again, I wasn't saying it was a good way to argue against gay rights, I was just pointing out that your statement of it being "ignorant" was not useful, helpful, relevant or even fair.
6.) On this point I agree to disagree. Churches groups are currently allowed to not allow people, who they believe are indulging in something wrong, to use their facilities etc. Thats their right and good on 'em.

7.)(This last statement I make from the view point that homosexuality is a choice which is a separate issue I don't want to get into over a forum. Too hard.)

8.) Again, no attacks on you personally, just on your arguments against the arguments against the gay equality movement.

1.) didnt say you were, but the point is NO, you are wrong.

2.) its not. I BELIEVE IN GOD, I AM A CHRISTIAN but im not retarded enough to think its my job to judge others, force my morals on them or have the laws based on my opinion to violate the rights of others in a free country. Im not an idiot so i would never want that.

religious marriage and legal marriage have ZERO to do with each other

3.) again didnt say you were but the slippery slope argument is a complete failure if one understands what slippery slop means. You say i didnt make a sound point but yet didnt except the challenge, i wonder why?

like i said PLEASE explain to us all how granting equal rights for gays will solely lead to other things using only the precedence for gay rights. Otherwise you got nothing.

this is how a slippery slope works so ill wait to see your answer.

4.) yes it is a lie, gay marriage exists BC, only thing changing is granting equality. There 100s of subjective definitions to marriage. It is in fact a lie to try to convince somebody theres only one, even the dictionary disagrees.

5.) yes its very fair anybody that thinks you can catch gay is very ignorant and uneducated and a complete fool

6.) you can disagree all you want but your disagreeing is very silly and illogical, i notice you addressed nothing i said so ill repeat it.

well since the constitution exists and since churches already discriminate again STRAIGHT,INTERRACIAL and RELIGIOUS couples RIGHT NOW your argument is simply not true and a huge failure. But most importantly has nothing to do with gays. Theres no danger of "churches" being forced to marry anybody. nice try but a complete failure.

there i ZERO risk of this.

7.) this is very telling ans also shows how personally uneducated you are on this topic and how ignorant you are on this subject. ANYBODY that feels that all sexual orientation or all homosexual orientation is a choice is completely clueless and never to be taken serious on the issue.

8.) no apology need i dont feel attacked at all and all your points failed, facts and reality prove them all wrong.

but please feel free to come back when you have legit concerns or reason to stop equal rights for gays. Ill gladly read then too.
 
We already know that you have no idea what the truth is. This has been proven COUNTLESS times on this forum. Truth is that homosexuality is a normal variant of sexual orientation. Truth is that homosexuality is not a disorder. Truth is that gay parents raise children as well as straight parents. These are all truths, truths that you do not accept because you chose your PERSONAL morality over ACTUAL information. You prefer to lie, distort, and ignore because the truth contradicts your morality, and doing so would cause you too much cognitive dissonance. Everything I have said here are facts that have been proven to you countless times. All you have is your denial and your fearful refusal to be educated on this issue. And what would you do if your child were gay? Emotionally abuse them by forcing untruths on them about themselves.

You are the one who doesn't know truth.
 
You are the one who doesn't know truth.

really? can you point out ONE thing he said that isnt truth and back it up using facts?

one. . . . . we'd love to read it. . . just one
 
You know ernst, I am getting TIRED of you misrepresenting people. NO ONE IS SAYING THAT SCHOOLS SHOULD TEACH THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS GOOD. No one. You keep repeating this falsehood like it is accurate. It isn't. You are making this up. So stop saying it.

As far as teaching that homosexuality is normal, since this is a FACT, schools have the right to teach it. If you believe that it is NOT normal (this does not include the statistical sense), then prove it. If you cannot, then the entire argument that you have been posting for DAYS is completely bogus, refuted, and irrelevant and will be treated as such.



And you, ernst barkmann, are posting irrelevancy and misrepresenting what everyone is saying. You need to actually READ what people write. No one is saying that schools should teach morality. What is really going on here is what I have said is going on. YOU don't like the facts of the matter, so you are complaining about the facts that are being taught. YOU support censorship.


here is how you opened your statement......"NO ONE IS SAYING THAT SCHOOLS SHOULD TEACH THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS GOOD", ...........then you say this .............. "as teaching that homosexuality is normal, since this is a FACT, schools have the right to teach "

you seem to be saying its not happening, no one is advocating teaching , ...then you say.....however its a fact so schools a right to teach it.

so its sort of a denial, and then, .......they should do it.

well you say schools are not teaching anything about homosexuality, OK, well i will provide proof.


American Power: California Public Schools to Teach Homosexual Curriculum to Children as Young as Kindergartners

www.defendthefamily.com/_docs/resources/2032505.pd

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/15/us/15gay.html?_r=0

CA Gov. Signs Pro-Homosexual School Indoctrination Bills; Likely to Affect Nation’s Schoolchildren | Family Policy Network

Calif Gov Signs Gay Education Bill | Advocate.com


again you say, facts on on your side, they might be, however, their are people who are on the opposite end of the spectrum, who would say they have the facts..........are your facts, the only truth, and everyone else with a different point of view is wrong?

as for me, i stated what i think, and thats all, however, as i said i have only opinion, ...which means nothing, i against any government force, that is my problem and that force comes in many ways, not just this issue here.

would you agree that the bible [ and i dont like getting in the bible ,but i will for this statement] teaches moral values, and part of that is homosexuality is wrong, and therefore not normal.

so if a child is taught homosexuality is wrong thru bible teachings, that child is receiving a moral teaching, ....now you want the school to teach homosexuality is normal, well teaching it is normal or abnormal, is still teaching from a moral perspective, whether you want to admit it or not...so government would be teaching from a moral position.

government is not charged in its power to teach people there personal morals, it is not a duty of government.

so for the issue like this one, i have heard its history, its science, and its facts, to justify the cause of teaching people the current government form of morality.
 
You are doing it again... proving that you do not know the difference between fact and opinion. Here, let me demonstrate:

Fact: homosexuality is normal.
Opinion: homosexuality is abnormal.

If you disagree, prove me wrong. And remember, I am not talking statistically.

i am doing it again?

what are you doing, you are trying to force me into proving a point, ...where you say, you have the facts, and you believe that proves your case and its closed

you have repeatedly, tried to box me into a corner, by throwing the burden of proof on me by asking me a question, remember "define fact", which you asked me, ...but you yourself would not answer, when i asked you.

i have dealt with many people on this board, and so many times, in debates on here , the other side from me, always demands, i provide all the proof, ...and i have in some situations.

but dont get mad at me, becuase i will not fill your demand for proof, when your only proof is....you say you have the facts.
 
There are not two positions. There is homosexuality is normal... which is a fact, and homosexuality is not normal, which is NOT A FACT. You want facts taught. If you believe that homosexuality not being normal is a fact, PROVE IT. If you cannot, then your position is invalid, or you are promoting censorship.

again you prove it, i have stated my opinion...you say its fact........you prove the fact then.
 
1.) didnt say you were, but the point is NO, you are wrong.

2.) its not. I BELIEVE IN GOD, I AM A CHRISTIAN but im not retarded enough to think its my job to judge others, force my morals on them or have the laws based on my opinion to violate the rights of others in a free country. Im not an idiot so i would never want that.

religious marriage and legal marriage have ZERO to do with each other

3.) again didnt say you were but the slippery slope argument is a complete failure if one understands what slippery slop means. You say i didnt make a sound point but yet didnt except the challenge, i wonder why?

like i said PLEASE explain to us all how granting equal rights for gays will solely lead to other things using only the precedence for gay rights. Otherwise you got nothing.

this is how a slippery slope works so ill wait to see your answer.

4.) yes it is a lie, gay marriage exists BC, only thing changing is granting equality. There 100s of subjective definitions to marriage. It is in fact a lie to try to convince somebody theres only one, even the dictionary disagrees.

5.) yes its very fair anybody that thinks you can catch gay is very ignorant and uneducated and a complete fool

6.) you can disagree all you want but your disagreeing is very silly and illogical, i notice you addressed nothing i said so ill repeat it.

well since the constitution exists and since churches already discriminate again STRAIGHT,INTERRACIAL and RELIGIOUS couples RIGHT NOW your argument is simply not true and a huge failure. But most importantly has nothing to do with gays. Theres no danger of "churches" being forced to marry anybody. nice try but a complete failure.

there i ZERO risk of this.

7.) this is very telling ans also shows how personally uneducated you are on this topic and how ignorant you are on this subject. ANYBODY that feels that all sexual orientation or all homosexual orientation is a choice is completely clueless and never to be taken serious on the issue.

8.) no apology need i dont feel attacked at all and all your points failed, facts and reality prove them all wrong.

but please feel free to come back when you have legit concerns or reason to stop equal rights for gays. Ill gladly read then too.



You keep saying the same things using emotions and not logic and jumping to conclusions. Makes it impossible to talk to you. I maintain none of your points disprove the arguments against gay equality. I'm afraid the type of political debate you use is what destroys democracy. Remove emotion. Dont jump to conclusions for the sake of it. And don't consider yourself smarter than people you are speaking with.
 
You are the one who doesn't know truth.

Your response is as hollow as your arguments. As I said, it has been proven REPEATEDLY that you do not know the truth on this matter. You have no response to anything I said, simply because I've refuted you on each of those points repeatedly, demonstrating exactly what I said: you don't know what you are talking about.
 
here is how you opened your statement......"NO ONE IS SAYING THAT SCHOOLS SHOULD TEACH THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS GOOD", ...........then you say this .............. "as teaching that homosexuality is normal, since this is a FACT, schools have the right to teach "

you seem to be saying its not happening, no one is advocating teaching , ...then you say.....however its a fact so schools a right to teach it.

You do not know the difference between the word good which is a value and the word fact, which is not. That seems to be your CONSTANT error, and even though I explained it completely and clearly in my previous post, you STILL don't get it.

so its sort of a denial, and then, .......they should do it.

The denial is yours.

Good equals value. Fact does not equal value. It is OK to teach fact. It is not OK to teach good.

I'll just keep repeating the above until you get it.

well you say schools are not teaching anything about homosexuality, OK, well i will provide proof.

Nope I never said that. Please try to debate what I said, not what you want me to have said.



All irrelevant since they have nothing to do with my argument.


again you say, facts on on your side, they might be, however, their are people who are on the opposite end of the spectrum, who would say they have the facts..........are your facts, the only truth, and everyone else with a different point of view is wrong?

Yes, that is correct. The other side has no facts.

as for me, i stated what i think, and thats all, however, as i said i have only opinion, ...which means nothing, i against any government force, that is my problem and that force comes in many ways, not just this issue here.

OK.

would you agree that the bible [ and i dont like getting in the bible ,but i will for this statement] teaches moral values, and part of that is homosexuality is wrong, and therefore not normal.

Irrelevant. I do not support schools teaching morality so in reference to what we are discussing, I don't care what the bible says.

so if a child is taught homosexuality is wrong thru bible teachings, that child is receiving a moral teaching, ....now you want the school to teach homosexuality is normal, well teaching it is normal or abnormal, is still teaching from a moral perspective, whether you want to admit it or not...so government would be teaching from a moral position.

The bible is teaching morality. The FACT that homosexuality is normal is a FACT. The bible is wrong from a factual standpoint. The government is teaching a fact. Getting it yet?

government is not charged in its power to teach people there personal morals, it is not a duty of government.

It is the duty of government to teach facts. Yet you seem opposed to that.

so for the issue like this one, i have heard its history, its science, and its facts, to justify the cause of teaching people the current government form of morality.

Since as I have proven, that is not happening, your comment above is irrelevant.
 
i am doing it again?

what are you doing, you are trying to force me into proving a point, ...where you say, you have the facts, and you believe that proves your case and its closed

If you can't prove your point, then you lose. That's how debate works.

you have repeatedly, tried to box me into a corner, by throwing the burden of proof on me by asking me a question, remember "define fact", which you asked me, ...but you yourself would not answer, when i asked you.

Yes, I have boxed you into a corner because you have refused to define basic words to prove your position. If you don't want to be boxed into a corner, either prove your position, or admit it's faulty. Your choice.

i have dealt with many people on this board, and so many times, in debates on here , the other side from me, always demands, i provide all the proof, ...and i have in some situations.

Yet not in this one.

but dont get mad at me, becuase i will not fill your demand for proof, when your only proof is....you say you have the facts.

You claim that there are facts on the "other side". Prove it. Show those facts. If you cannot, then your position has no merit.
 
again you prove it, i have stated my opinion...you say its fact........you prove the fact then.

Oh, so you are saying that your position of "homosexuality is abnormal" is not a fact, but an opinion. Is that correct?
 
1.)You keep saying the same things using emotions and not logic and jumping to conclusions.
2.)Makes it impossible to talk to you.
3.) I maintain none of your points disprove the arguments against gay equality.
4.)I'm afraid the type of political debate you use is what destroys democracy.
5.)Remove emotion.
6.) Dont jump to conclusions for the sake of it.
7.) And don't consider yourself smarter than people you are speaking with.

1.)Did you think this deflection would honestly work?
Actually i keep using facts, law, logic, rights and court precedence and NOT emotion. This is why i keep saying the same things. YOU want me to use emotion because its the only way youd have any points. but facts dont care emotions or peoples feelings. SOrry. Let ma knoe when you can use any FACTS and actually make a unfailed point.
2.) see #1, use facts and logic and youll be fine
3.) you can maintain what every you like but the fact is they all fail due to the stuff already listed in this post and the two threads and 200 pages.
4.) another failed deflections, you mean me protecting peoples rights and using facts instead of ruling based on feelings, emotions and beliefs? Sorry thats exactly what preserves it. There were lots of hurt feelings when minorities gains rights, when women gains rights and when interracial marriage was protected but facts dont care and it was democracy that made it happened.
5.) never used any, if you disagree PLEASE PLEASE point out where i used solely emotion and no facts and logic. Please point out for use where i used nothing by "emotion" Quote them Id love to read it.
6.) Id dint again see #1
7.) DOnt group others in your failed post. And this is perfect advice for you, you assumed you were smarter than me and these failed deflection would work, but they didnt. We are right where we started, 0 reasons.

so again but please feel free to come back when you have legit concerns or reason to stop equal rights for gays. Ill gladly read then too. This time try to use facts or at least supportable concerns.
 
In a free country, if you want to tell people that they can't do something, you have to be able to show how it causes you harm. All the huffing and puffing the gay-hater spit out, they can't prove harm. They can only make wild conjectures about how gay marriages would cause the end of civilization, but with no sane logic to show how. Their "explanations" are little more than superstition.
 
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