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Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it? (PART II)

Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it? (PART II)

  • Total voters
    154
CLAX1911 said:
Indeed, I have heard repeatedly that I should be happy with this made up civil union, and that marriage is reserved for the right kind of relationship. The line is in the sand, I was forced to pick a side.

Its all good though, we are winning.
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Exactly. I've seen stuff like this before. This is why the reasonable people on the side of an issue should do everything in their power to shut down and denigrate the unreasonable people on their side of that issue. Those people do more damage then the opposition. Consider that Fred Phelps probably does more for the pro-gay movement than many gay rights activists.
 
ernst barkmann said:
i am answering you again, because of what you posted here.

who is it that does the teaching?

is it the parents, or the school ?....that teaches its ....... wrong gross or offensive

if you say the school has no business teaching its wrong gross or offensive, .........then on the other hand, the school has no authority to teach its good decent or proper.
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The school should be teaching information. That's about it.
 
ernst barkmann said:
i am answering you again, because of what you posted here.

1.)who is it that does the teaching?

2.) is it the parents, or the school that teaches its ....... wrong gross or offensive

3.)if you say the school has no business teaching its wrong gross or offensive
4.) .........then on the other hand, the school has no authority to teach its good or proper.
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1.) people in general not official teachers depending on the circumstances.
2.) see #1
3.) i do say that so does the law, yes a public school has no business teaching homosexuality is wrong and gross
4.) 100% factually false

that depends on your subjective definition of "proper or good", the opposite is not true in general, again depending on how you magically define "good and proper"



in school gender, sexuality, religion, disabilities, social/economic status and race among other things are taught to kids as: they exist, they are like everybody else, theres nothing wrong with them, we shouldn't judge them and in society its our duty to be civil in situations like these. The EXACT same thing said about them all.

if this type of teaching bothers you, you do have some options, home school your kid or teach them the other tings you want them to know when they come home like most PARENTS.

very simple solution

also please save us from your POT, im just dealing in facts here
 
digsbe said:
I shouldn't even respond to the stawman of ssm=inter racial marriage or that they are even remotely similar.

Marriage policy is marriage policy. Redefining marriage to include new unions is a policy issue more closely related to setting a tax rate or something else that is policy (not rights) based. Majority rules, that's democracy and within the state's rights. When sexuality is a protected class in the constitution like race and religion then you may have an argument. It's unconstitutional to deny people the ability to marry based on their race, it is within a state's right and policy to not redefine marriage to include new unions like ssm.

As to the poll question, of course it's right for people to stop or try to prevent ssm from being legalized. They have every right to vote on their beliefs and stop something they believe is wrong just like anyone else.
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Marriage was redefined to include inter-racial marriage. Was it a "state's right" to do so before the Supeme Court stepped in? How is SSM any different. If the Supreme Court steps in like it did with inter-racial marriage, are you ok with that?
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
The school should be teaching information. That's about it.
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information?. What kind of information....one which makes you happy and another person unhappy.

understand please I am taking not stand in this thread of is homosexuality right or wrong.

my point as a libertarian is government has no moral authority on either side of the issue.
 
AGENT J said:
1.) people in general not official teachers depending on the circumstances.
2.) see #1
3.) i do say that so does the law, yes a public school has no business teaching homosexuality is wrong and gross
4.) 100% factually false

that depends on your subjective definition of "proper or good", the opposite is not true in general, again depending on how you magically define "good and proper"



in school gender, sexuality, religion, disabilities, social/economic status and race among other things are taught to kids as: they exist, they are like everybody else, theres nothing wrong with them, we shouldn't judge them and in society its our duty to be civil in situations like these. The EXACT same thing said about them all.

if this type of teaching bothers you, you do have some options, home school your kid or teach them the other tings you want them to know when they come home like most PARENTS.

very simple solution

also please save us from your POT, im just dealing in facts here
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how can the school promote one side of an equation and not the other?

if the left hold power in government and create polices with our schools which promote things which you agree with, then cannot be the opposite exist, the right hold power in government and make polices with our schools which you disagree with.

so if a CA wishes to teach one side, cannot AZ teach the other?
 
ernst barkmann said:
information?. What kind of information....one which makes you happy and another person unhappy.

understand please I am taking not stand in this thread of is homosexuality right or wrong.

my point as a libertarian is government has no moral authority on either side of the issue.
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Information is information. If there is a class/discussion about sexuality, providing information about homosexuality is appropriate.
 
ernst barkmann said:
again what kind of info,......that which places it in a positive light or a negative light?
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One can provide information without adding value to it. Here's an example:

"The Union won the Civil War." That presents information, no value.
"The Union defeated those evil slaveholders." That presents value.

Here's another:

"Research has shown that homosexuality is not a disorder, but just a different type of sexual orientation". That presents information, no value.
"Homosexuality is cool and should be embraced by everyone". That presents value.
 
ernst barkmann said:
1.)how can the school promote one side of an equation and not the other?

2.)if the left hold power in government and create polices with our schools which promote things which you agree with, then cannot be the opposite exist, the right hold power in government and make polices with our schools which you disagree with.

3.)so if a CA wishes to teach one side, cannot AZ teach the other?
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1.) they arent "promoting" any side.

like i said "in school gender, sexuality, religion, disabilities, social/economic status and race among other things are taught to kids as: they exist, they are like everybody else, theres nothing wrong with them, we shouldn't judge them and in society its our duty to be civil in situations like these. The EXACT same thing said about them all."

2.) see #1

3.) see 1#
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
One can provide information without adding value to it. Here's an example:

"The Union won the Civil War." That presents information, no value.
"The Union defeated those evil slaveholders." That presents value.

Here's another:

"Research has shown that homosexuality is not a disorder, but just a different type of sexual orientation". That presents information, no value.
"Homosexuality is cool and should be embraced by everyone". That presents value.
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so if a school stated that homosexuality is a normal and natural act...............is that info or value

so if a school stated that homosexuality is a abnormal and unnatural act ......is that info or value
 
ernst barkmann said:
so if a school stated that homosexuality is a normal and natural act...............is that info or value
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Depends on how it is communicated. If a school says that homosexuality is a normal orientation variant and is natural since it occurs in nature, that would be info, not value.

so if a school stated that homosexuality is a abnormal and unnatural act ......is that info or value
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If the school stated that homosexuality is abnormal in a statistical sense, that is info. I cannot think of one instance where saying that it is an unnatural act would not be value.
 
winston53660 said:
it would be incorrect
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but that is only opinion from you, others feel it is incorrect...so because you feel what you believe is correct...does that give you and others authority to have what you believe promoted?

cannot others who feel different than you, have what they feel is correct promoted also?
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Depends on how it is communicated. If a school says that homosexuality is a normal orientation variant and is natural since it occurs in nature, that would be info, not value.



If the school stated that homosexuality is abnormal in a statistical sense, that is info. I cannot think of one instance where saying that it is an unnatural act would not be value.
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but now you drawing a fine line, and that line can be crossed over very easy, and since people hold their own personal moral standard, people lean towards their own point of view when engaging in activity such as teaching
 
ernst barkmann said:
but that is only opinion from you, others feel it is incorrect...so because you feel what you believe is correct...does that give you and others authority to have what you believe promoted?

cannot others who feel different than you, have what they feel is correct promoted also?
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Those things are not feelings. It is factual that homosexuality, other than in a statistical sense, is normal. It is also a MORAL statement to say that homosexuals perform unnatural acts. It is also factually incorrect. You yourself have stated that it is inappropriate to add value or opinion in these matters.
 
ernst barkmann said:
but now you drawing a fine line, and that line can be crossed over very easy, and since people hold their own personal moral standard, people lean towards their own point of view when engaging in activity such as teaching
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No, the line is intact. Info vs. value. As long as one does not cross the line, getting close is fine.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Those things are not feelings. It is factual that homosexuality, other than in a statistical sense, is normal. It is also a MORAL statement to say that homosexuals perform unnatural acts. It is also factually incorrect. You yourself have stated that it is inappropriate to add value or opinion in these matters.
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again you say its normal, but others say its not, ...how is it that you get to prevail over the ideas of other people, in the public realm?
 
ernst barkmann said:
again you say it normal, but others say it not, ...how is it that you get to prevail over the ideas of other people, in the public realm?
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I'm not saying it's normal. Beyond statistics, it IS normal. This is proven through research and studies. Facts prevail over opinions.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
No, the line is intact. Info vs. value. As long as one does not cross the line, getting close is fine.
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1)if a school in a red state teaches homosexuality is abnormal.............will you be angry? and want it stopped?

2)if a school in a blue state teaches homosexuality is normal .............will you be angry ?and want it stopped?

my predication is you would say yes to both questions in 1

and no to both questions in 2.....and have things that way to suit you.


now explain to me, why cant another person who feels differently then you, answer the questions in reverse, and have what he wants...which is opposite to your position.

why you do feel only what you believe should be represented?
 
ernst barkmann said:
but that is only opinion from you,
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No it is not an opinion. It id normal and natural for X% of the population to be homosexual since the dawn of humankind.

others feel it is incorrect...
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key word "feel"

so because you feel what you believe is correct...
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It is not a belief.

does that give you and others authority to have what you believe promoted?
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Again not a belief.

cannot others who feel different than you, have what they feel is correct promoted also?
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it would be a disservice in education.
 
ernst barkmann said:
1)if a school in a red state teaches homosexuality is abnormal.............will you be angry? and want it stopped?

2)if a school in a blue state teaches homosexuality is normal .............will you be angry ?and want it stopped?

my predication is you would say yes to both questions in 1

and no to both questions in 2.....and have things that way to suit you.


now explain to me, why cant another person who feels differently then you, answer the questions in reverse, and have what he wants...which is opposite to your position.

why you do feel only what you believe should be represented?
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already answered in the post below, it has nothgin to do with HIM

CaptainCourtesy said:
I'm not saying it's normal. Beyond statistics, it IS normal. This is proven through research and studies. Facts prevail over opinions.
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ernst barkmann said:
1)if a school in a red state teaches homosexuality is abnormal.............will you be angry? and want it stopped?
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Yes because that is a value judgement and factually incorrect.

2)if a school in a blue state teaches homosexuality is normal .............will you be angry ?and want it stopped?
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No, because that is information.

my predication is you would say yes to both questions in 1

and no to both questions in 2.....and have things that way to suit you.
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Your prediction is correct but your reasoning is not. It's about facts, not values. YOU have clearly stated that you do not want values taught in schools. Seems to me that you don't want facts that you don't like taught in schools.


now explain to me, why cant another person who feels differently then you, answer the questions in reverse, and have what he wants...which is opposite to your position.

why you do feel only what you believe should be represented?
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Feelings are irrelevant. Facts are relevant. I've explained this to you.
 
ernst barkmann said:
I used him, instead of saying the people who support the same view point as him.

and it does matter.
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no in a public school it does not

and you asked him why only HIS views matter and that is NOT what is going on

FACTS matter

this is a very easy concept.
 
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