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When should the United States of America go to war?

When should the United States of America go to war?

  • Total voters
    72
I say we pull out of the middle east and the rest of the world and mind our own business. We can make a better and more secure US and world if we try to get along with nations and trade with them instead of forcing how to live.

Blowback is a bitch.
 
chickie said:
Christians have never attacked us.
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Yes they have. You should do your research.

Muslims have committed more than 15,500 deadly terror attacks around the world SINCE 911. We should take out Iran's nuke facilities before it gets REALLY ugly. Saddam Hussein threatened to take us off the map with his wmd. We took him seriously.
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So this is a war on Islam, is it?
 
chickie said:
Christians have never attacked us. Muslims have committed more than 15,500 deadly terror attacks around the world SINCE 911. We should take out Iran's nuke facilities before it gets REALLY ugly. Saddam Hussein threatened to take us off the map with his wmd. We took him seriously.
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This is false and ignorant of our history.
 
kaya'08 said:
I find it rather frightening you believe war is healthy and acceptable.
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War has been a part of the human race from the very beginning. Every nation and every tribe of human beings that has ever existed has waged war against its neighbors and every great civlization that the human race has ever produced was created through war, maintained through war, and eventually they are undone by war making room for new civilizations to arise in their place. Throughout this, the human race has not only survived but thrived. The cycle of war and rebuilding keeps our species vital and evolving; we are a better species for our history of warfare and it is by warfare that our species will continue to improve in the future.

I know the horror and grief of warfare as well as any man who has never been in a warzone can. I have lost family and friends in war. I have seen disabled veterans and photographs of the children maimed and killed in warzones. And contrary to what many people believe, I do value human life. But in this, like in all things, I see things in terms of the long term and the big picture. Blood makes the grass grow and guts make the grass green. War is a necessary part of the course of human development.
 
Korimyr the Rat said:
War has been a part of the human race from the very beginning. Every nation and every tribe of human beings that has ever existed has waged war against its neighbors and every great civlization that the human race has ever produced was created through war, maintained through war, and eventually they are undone by war making room for new civilizations to arise in their place. Throughout this, the human race has not only survived but thrived. The cycle of war and rebuilding keeps our species vital and evolving; we are a better species for our history of warfare and it is by warfare that our species will continue to improve in the future.

I know the horror and grief of warfare as well as any man who has never been in a warzone can. I have lost family and friends in war. I have seen disabled veterans and photographs of the children maimed and killed in warzones. And contrary to what many people believe, I do value human life. But in this, like in all things, I see things in terms of the long term and the big picture. Blood makes the grass grow and guts make the grass green. War is a necessary part of the course of human development.
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What constitutes valid reasons for going to war for you, Kori? Defense of American homeland? Promulgating principles, values, and political systems? Economic reasons? National interests?
 
Korimyr the Rat said:
War has been a part of the human race from the very beginning. Every nation and every tribe of human beings that has ever existed has waged war against its neighbors and every great civlization that the human race has ever produced was created through war, maintained through war, and eventually they are undone by war making room for new civilizations to arise in their place. Throughout this, the human race has not only survived but thrived. The cycle of war and rebuilding keeps our species vital and evolving; we are a better species for our history of warfare and it is by warfare that our species will continue to improve in the future.
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We have been killing, raping and screwing things up since the very beginning, doesn't make it right.
I accept your a fascist (not a diss, you actually are) and hence are expected to hold these views, but to promote war even if it is uncalled for is worrying. It isn't healthy.
Empires have thrived under war, yes, but that was during the colonial days, the days of Empires. And its precisely the toll on human resources, the horrors war creates and the grief it spreads that has made that age come to pass.
Japan is a pacifist country and has thrived. There is no evidence to suggest the human race requires war for survival. Our early history and the creation of new civilizations cannot be compared to the modern world. Our species are the human race, and it does not benefit from war.
Unprovoked war is the residue of greed, and greed is the cancer of our species.
Thus it cannot be healthy.
When the time comes the world's resources are finishing, we will go to space. We do need war for survival. The wars in the ME have not strengthened or revitalized the American people.
Our early history was very different. Technology and living standards where primitive, and it was constant war, expansion of land and resources that created the expansion of knowledge and human capability. It made civilizations that built towns and cities to support our species and vitalize our existence as human beings on the top of the food chain. Today's world everything is handed on a silver platter.
It is not war that makes our species prosper today, it is science and national pride.


I know the horror and grief of warfare as well as any man who has never been in a warzone can. I have lost family and friends in war. I have seen disabled veterans and photographs of the children maimed and killed in warzones. And contrary to what many people believe, I do value human life. But in this, like in all things, I see things in terms of the long term and the big picture. Blood makes the grass grow and guts make the grass green. War is a necessary part of the course of human development.
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I simply disagree, since there is no evidence to support this view.
 
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Korimyr the Rat said:
War has been a part of the human race from the very beginning. Every nation and every tribe of human beings that has ever existed has waged war against its neighbors and every great civlization that the human race has ever produced was created through war, maintained through war, and eventually they are undone by war making room for new civilizations to arise in their place. Throughout this, the human race has not only survived but thrived. The cycle of war and rebuilding keeps our species vital and evolving; we are a better species for our history of warfare and it is by warfare that our species will continue to improve in the future.

I know the horror and grief of warfare as well as any man who has never been in a warzone can. I have lost family and friends in war. I have seen disabled veterans and photographs of the children maimed and killed in warzones. And contrary to what many people believe, I do value human life. But in this, like in all things, I see things in terms of the long term and the big picture. Blood makes the grass grow and guts make the grass green. War is a necessary part of the course of human development.
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War does nothing but line the pockets of the rich and powerful few. It's the rest of humanity that pays for it.
 
Not to include war for self defense or as a last resort.
 
reefedjib said:
What constitutes valid reasons for going to war for you, Kori? Defense of American homeland? Promulgating principles, values, and political systems? Economic reasons? National interests?
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I know you asked Korimyr, but I'd like to address this.

While I am no warmonger, I don't think there should be any rigid rules that our government should follow with regards to when our country should go to war. After all, the Framers made no mention of the reasons why our government should go to war in the Constitution. Rather, they provided for checks and balances in the Constitution regarding when Congress and the President believes it is prudent.

So only Congress can declare war, which requires a majority of Congressmen and Senators to determine, which means there must be a general consensus to attain that declaration. However, it is the President who is Commander-in-Chief of the military because the military requires a very clear chain of command and at it's top is the President. This means that the President can order troops wherever he wants and is a check against Congress. However, Congress has a check against the President's power to command troops to engage in operations because Congress has the power of the purse and can refuse to fund certain military operations, which limits how much the military can be deployed.

So when should the U.S. declare war? Whenever Congress determines to declare it, whenever the President determines to engage in military operations, and whenever Congress determines to fund them.

And I like it that way. It means that the American government and it's people can change over time, and it doesn't lock out any possibilities for our enemies to take advantage of. It also fuels debate over the use of military, and I think war is a subject that should be in constant debate.
 
reefedjib said:
What constitutes valid reasons for going to war for you, Kori? Defense of American homeland? Promulgating principles, values, and political systems? Economic reasons? National interests?
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Those all sound good. The most important factor I consider in whether or not we should go to war is whether or not we can win.

kaya'08 said:
I accept your a fascist (not a diss, you actually are) and hence are expected to hold these views...
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I do not hold these views because I am a Fascist. I am a Fascist because I hold these views. If I am expected to do anything, it's to embrace liberal democratic values, work for a faceless corporation all my life, and die quietly and alone in a nursing facility out of sheer boredom. I am expected to do nothing and be a nobody while others rule the world and sap us of our life and strength to line their pockets.

kaya'08 said:
Empires have thrived under war, yes, but that was during the colonial days, the days of Empires.
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Do you think that human nature has changed in the last century? There's only one great empire left in the world, and it carries itself exactly as has every other empire in human history. We may now be witnessing its final days, but there are other nations preparing to rise up and take its place. The cycle of human history continues unperturbed.

kaya'08 said:
Japan is a pacifist country and has thrived.
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For a mere sixty years and with tremendous amounts of American support. And for how long has Japan's economy and population been stagnating? They're facing a demographic crisis because of their aging population.
 
Johnny said:
War does nothing but line the pockets of the rich and powerful few. It's the rest of humanity that pays for it. Not to include war for self defense or as a last resort.
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No? How many people do you think are employed by Halliburton? All of our defense contractors? Even the private military contractors that our nation employs. War keeps our fighting men out of the labor force and creates new jobs.
 
samsmart said:
I know you asked Korimyr, but I'd like to address this.

While I am no warmonger, I don't think there should be any rigid rules that our government should follow with regards to when our country should go to war. After all, the Framers made no mention of the reasons why our government should go to war in the Constitution. Rather, they provided for checks and balances in the Constitution regarding when Congress and the President believes it is prudent.

So only Congress can declare war, which requires a majority of Congressmen and Senators to determine, which means there must be a general consensus to attain that declaration. However, it is the President who is Commander-in-Chief of the military because the military requires a very clear chain of command and at it's top is the President. This means that the President can order troops wherever he wants and is a check against Congress. However, Congress has a check against the President's power to command troops to engage in operations because Congress has the power of the purse and can refuse to fund certain military operations, which limits how much the military can be deployed.

So when should the U.S. declare war? Whenever Congress determines to declare it, whenever the President determines to engage in military operations, and whenever Congress determines to fund them.

And I like it that way. It means that the American government and it's people can change over time, and it doesn't lock out any possibilities for our enemies to take advantage of. It also fuels debate over the use of military, and I think war is a subject that should be in constant debate.
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Congress is not required to declare war: War Powers Resolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Korimyr the Rat said:
Those all sound good. The most important factor I consider in whether or not we should go to war is whether or not we can win.
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Yep. A difficult proposition in a liberal republic executing a counterinsurgency.
 
Korimyr the Rat said:
No? How many people do you think are employed by Halliburton? All of our defense contractors? Even the private military contractors that our nation employs. War keeps our fighting men out of the labor force and creates new jobs.
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It puts us further in debt. The Fed prints more money out of thin air, inflates the currency to pay for it all, the value of the dollar goes down, we're put further into debt, we borrow from China, it's a big black hole.

It makes the bankers and the select few rich. But it hurts everyone else.
 
Johnny said:
It puts us further in debt. The Fed prints more money out of thin air, inflates the currency to pay for it all, the value of the dollar goes down, we're put further into debt, we borrow from China, it's a big black hole.

It makes the bankers and the select few rich. But it hurts everyone else.
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You are talking about the effect of entitlements, not war in limited capacity.
 
Korimyr the Rat said:
No? How many people do you think are employed by Halliburton? All of our defense contractors? Even the private military contractors that our nation employs. War keeps our fighting men out of the labor force and creates new jobs.
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But not productive jobs, which is what we need in order to maintain or raise our standard of living. War is useful if it's necessary for self-defense. Otherwise it has no more economic benefit than any other wealth redistribution program.
 
samsmart said:
I know. That's why I included "whenever the President determines to engage in military operations, and whenever Congress determines to fund them."

I was just noting that it is only Congress that has the ability to declare official war.
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Ok, it sounded like you meant all three had to be active concurrently, including a declaration of an act of war.
 
Goobieman said:
Can you elaborate on that?
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if another nation declares war, if it is blockaded, if it's territory is violated, generally as a response to direct action against it, not a maybe, but an actual threat.
 
spud_meister said:
if another nation declares war, if it is blockaded, if it's territory is violated, generally as a response to direct action against it, not a maybe, but an actual threat.
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What about resources necessary to U.S. needs but available only in foreign lands, such as oil in the Middle East?
 
spud_meister said:
if another nation declares war, if it is blockaded, if it's territory is violated, generally as a response to direct action against it, not a maybe, but an actual threat.
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Well, OK...
December 1941...
At what specific point are you OK with going to war with Japan?
 
samsmart said:
What about resources necessary to U.S. needs but available only in foreign lands, such as oil in the Middle East?
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Vital resources are always a legitimate cause for war.
 
Only when necessary, and necessary involving attacks against our sovereignty.
 
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