View Poll Results: Do you think we need more Independent/3rd party Senators and Congressmen?

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  • Yes

    23 74.19%
  • No

    5 16.13%
  • I don't know

    1 3.23%
  • Other

    2 6.45%
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Thread: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

  1. #81
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Are you going to show me where you discussed fundamental libertarian philosophy then?
    You and I have discussed it multiple times in several threads. If you want me to, I can bring up multiple threads about natural law and all that jazz.

  2. #82
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    You and I have discussed it multiple times in several threads. If you want me to, I can bring up multiple threads about natural law and all that jazz.
    More than natural rights too. That's a side argument, and one not necessarily unique to libertarianism. Though in practice, both right/left treat our rights as privileges; where as libertarians would fight hard for the acknowledging and proliferation of all our rights. But bring up our fundamental philosophy and demonstrate how that makes us extreme right-wing. Remembering that extreme-right wing philosophies (much like extreme left-wing philosophies) require massive use of government against the rights and liberties of the individual.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #83
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    More than natural rights too. That's a side argument, and one not necessarily unique to libertarianism. Though in practice, both right/left treat our rights as privileges; where as libertarians would fight hard for the acknowledging and proliferation of all our rights. But bring up our fundamental philosophy and demonstrate how that makes us extreme right-wing. Remembering that extreme-right wing philosophies (much like extreme left-wing philosophies) require massive use of government against the rights and liberties of the individual.
    Why should I do this for you, so you can frame an argument? I am beginning to not trust you as a debater after all of your hysterics and I prefer we stick to the current topic. We could perhaps start a side thread, if you pose the question in a manner that I find interesting. Also, I disagree on the bold point, extremism is a view point and attitude. (this actually does relate to our current discussion)
    Last edited by tacomancer; 08-09-10 at 06:26 PM.

  4. #84
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Why should I do this, so you can frame an argument? I am beginning to not trust you as a debater after all of your hysterics and I prefer we stick to the current topic. Also, I disagree on the bold point, extremism is a view point and attitude.
    So you're building all this off of your personal preference and bias then; as I've stated from the beginning. There has been no hysterics. I said you mislabeled a group; and you did. Libertarianism is not extreme right-wing. On a pure 1-D political spectrum, libertarianism is centric (which is why you need another variable to fully categorize the spectrum; as I've continually said). In essence you're trying to back out of this argument because you have nothing substantial to back it up with. It's just your feelings, your ideals, and your bias on the matter. Extreme right-wing is indeed authoritative or fascist governments. Extreme left-wing is indeed heavy communist or socialist governments. Those are the end points. To label libertarians as extreme right-wing you are putting us in the authoritative/fascist philosophy; of which we are most certainly not.

    This whole issue is caused because you don't want to add the proper number of variables, for whatever reason. And thus you're trying desperately not to have libertarianism as a centrist policy because you view us as extreme. And we may be just that; just not along right-wing philosophies.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So you're building all this off of your personal preference and bias then; as I've stated from the beginning.
    Nope. I just don't see the point in going into further detail of my argument when I have already pointed out stuff like anti-regulation, small government, low taxes, etc. (all coming from the same basic ideas).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    There has been no hysterics. I said you mislabeled a group; and you did.
    Yes, no hysterics, which is why you are constantly accusing me of lying and bias.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Libertarianism is not extreme right-wing. On a pure 1-D political spectrum, libertarianism is centric (which is why you need another variable to fully categorize the spectrum; as I've continually said). In essence you're trying to back out of this argument because you have nothing substantial to back it up with. It's just your feelings, your ideals, and your bias on the matter.
    Than you have been ignoring my posts. But we already knew that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Extreme right-wing is indeed authoritative or fascist governments. Extreme left-wing is indeed heavy communist or socialist governments. Those are the end points. To label libertarians as extreme right-wing you are putting us in the authoritative/fascist philosophy; of which we are most certainly not.
    Some forms of extremism do seek to use power to subjugate others, and others do not. both are still examples of extremism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    This whole issue is caused because you don't want to add the proper number of variables, for whatever reason. And thus you're trying desperately not to have libertarianism as a centrist policy because you view us as extreme. And we may be just that; just not along right-wing philosophies.
    I know what started the argument.

  6. #86
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Nope. I just don't see the point in going into further detail of my argument when I have already pointed out stuff like anti-regulation, small government, low taxes, etc. (all coming from the same basic ideas).
    And I already pointed out several ways we differ from the right on those measures. You merely mentioned some of those as surface agreements. None of that went to explain the underlying philosophies. Yet you took those surface agreements as valid and denied surface agreements when it sided with the left.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Yes, no hysterics, which is why you are constantly accusing me of lying and bias.
    That's because you've added nothing substantial. All it is is what YOU think is proper surface agreement, and what isn't. No discussion of why; just what you feel. You go off of what YOU think is extremism; no discussion of philosophies; but rather your own interpretations and personal feelings. It's not my fault you made a crappy argument and didn't back anything up or provide anything substantial.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Than you have been ignoring my posts. But we already knew that.
    I've read all your posts, and it's all your personal feelings, preferences, and bias. Why else would you accept surface agreement with the right but not the left while not addressing any of the fundamental philosophical differences.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Some forms of extremism do seek to use power to subjugate others, and others do not. both are still examples of extremism.
    Yes, and one of those is not properly represented on a 1-D political graph.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I know what started the argument.
    Your mislabeling of libertarianism as an extreme right-wing philosophy and refusal to add the proper number of variables to determine the system.

    This is simplified, but it also is well better at properly categorizing philosophies than the 1-D treatment

    Last edited by Ikari; 08-09-10 at 06:42 PM.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  7. #87
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    And I already pointed out several ways we differ from the right on those measures. You merely mentioned some of those as surface agreements. None of that went to explain the underlying philosophies. Yet you took those surface agreements as valid and denied surface agreements when it sided with the left.
    This is because I assumed you had a basic level of political understanding. Perhaps I should not make this assumption next time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    That's because you've added nothing substantial. All it is is what YOU think is proper surface agreement, and what isn't. No discussion of why; just what you feel. You go off of what YOU think is extremism; no discussion of philosophies; but rather your own interpretations and personal feelings. It's not my fault you made a crappy argument and didn't back anything up or provide anything substantial.
    Ok. Please show me where my examples are wrong and why. We can debate this if you wish, but you actually have to debate, not just make accusations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I've read all your posts, and it's all your personal feelings, preferences, and bias. Why else would you accept surface agreement with the right but not the left while not addressing any of the fundamental philosophical differences.
    I never made that argument. Again, please show me. I have shown you a post from the first page where I was making a different argument. Please afford me the same courtesey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yes, and one of those is not properly represented on a 1-D political graph.

    Your mislabeling of libertarianism as an extreme right-wing philosophy and refusal to add the proper number of variables to determine the system.

    This is simplified, but it also is well better at properly categorizing philosophies than the 1-D treatment

    So you keep insisting.

  8. #88
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    This is because I assumed you had a basic level of political understanding. Perhaps I should not make this assumption next time?
    Perhaps you should just make better arguments next time.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Ok. Please show me where my examples are wrong and why. We can debate this if you wish, but you actually have to debate, not just make accusations.
    Because you didn't link any philosophy. You said "Oh they agree on lower taxes". That's a surface agreement and one you took at full face value. However, we agree and disagree with both sides on a lot of issues. Yet any surface agreement with the left you dismissed while you promoted the surface agreement with the right. I can't believe you are really having a hard time understanding this. This is all well within the ability of humans to understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I never made that argument. Again, please show me. I have shown you a post from the first page where I was making a different argument. Please afford me the same courtesey.
    Yes, you did. Less you want to point out where you made your definitions and philosophical arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    So you keep insisting.
    I continually do, because this whole mess is made up because you don't think you need another variable. You called it a crutch I do believe. Yet if you have a multivariable system, you cannot fully describe the system with one variable.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #89
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Perhaps you should just make better arguments next time.
    I agree, I need to dumb them down I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Because you didn't link any philosophy. You said "Oh they agree on lower taxes". That's a surface agreement and one you took at full face value. However, we agree and disagree with both sides on a lot of issues. Yet any surface agreement with the left you dismissed while you promoted the surface agreement with the right. I can't believe you are really having a hard time understanding this. This is all well within the ability of humans to understand.
    I guess this is where we disagree. Both sides tend to think lower taxes is a fundamental good in and of itself. To me this is more of an ideological thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yes, you did. Less you want to point out where you made your definitions and philosophical arguments.
    I continue to contend that there is no need for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I continually do, because this whole mess is made up because you don't think you need another variable. You called it a crutch I do believe. Yet if you have a multivariable system, you cannot fully describe the system with one variable.
    And I continue to disagree.

  10. #90
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I agree, I need to dumb them down I guess.
    That or apply logic and consistency.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I guess this is where we disagree. Both sides tend to think lower taxes is a fundamental good in and of itself. To me this is more of an ideological thing.
    Another "I think" argument of yours. The surface is taxes up or down. We happen to agree with down. Why? For Republicans it's a talking point; something to differentiate itself from the Democrats. But very little is done about deficit spending or taxes in reality. As evidence of our out of control spending and deficit. For libertarians, it's because of a fundamental belief in the limitation of government and the forms of force it can use over us. Along with what the government was given power to do. There's a difference in the philosophy. You happen to want to see it as the philosophical agreement, though when it comes to libertarian/left you're more apt to call that "surface agreement". But these are based on your personal preference. Notice how many times you've used the "I think" argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I continue to contend that there is no need for it.
    But apparently there is because you cannot properly identify libertarian philosophy.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    And I continue to disagree.
    Again, on your personal preference of thinking there doesn't need to be one. But your designation of libertarians as extreme right-wing shows the flaw in your categorization system.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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