View Poll Results: Do you think we need more Independent/3rd party Senators and Congressmen?

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  • Yes

    23 74.19%
  • No

    5 16.13%
  • I don't know

    1 3.23%
  • Other

    2 6.45%
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Thread: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

  1. #71
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No I don't. The word is fine if used correctly. You have not used it correctly. Libertarians are not extreme right-wing. There was nothing emotional is what I wrote. You're DEFLECTING AGAIN to try to get out of your argument. Or lack there of. Extremist is a fine term if used correctly. The term extreme right-wing is not appropriately applied to libertarians.

    None of my arguments are piss poor. If you wanted to read them for what they are, you would see that. Nothing I said is emotional, it's all built upon your incorrect definition of libertarianism as an extreme right-wing. You need another axis to correctly characterize it. You have insisted on not having one with no logical argument as to why. But this entire mess is caused by your refusal to properly designate political ideologies.

    No it doesn't, and what point? You're making crap up now. Saying I don't like the word "extreme" or whatever BS you have to pull out of your ass to try to get yourself out of the hole you've dug yourself into.

    Some people just don't know when they've failed. It's public service.
    All of this boils down to "You are disagreeing with me, so you must be posting dishonestly"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No I didn't assume either of that. You say that surface agreement counts when it is in favor of right-wing; but not when it is in favor of the left-wing. Fundamentally, libertarianism is very different from both the traditional left/right in its ideology and philosophy. Yet you want to apply significance to it one one side, and ignore it on the other side just to make your point. Talk about dishonest.
    (thanks for responding with a real argument and not making up wild accusations, I will respond in kind). Yes, I do want to emphasize the ideology side and not the surface side because that better reflects a person's beliefs. It gives insight into what motivates them, what they think is important, how they think, etc. Its what drives a person politically, so its vastly more important than a correlation between two ideologies. What I am looking for is who the person is and that is how I am making my distinction and that's how I am determining where I think they should be put on the spectrum.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 08-09-10 at 05:14 PM.

  2. #72
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    All of this boils down to "You are disagreeing with me, so you must be posting dishonestly"
    So again, you cannot address the issues. And it's not "you are disagreeing with me, so you must be posting dishonestly"; thanks for again another DEFLECT from you. You're dishonest in how you present your argument. You take surface agreement as valid if it agrees with right-wing. You take surface agreement as invalid if it agrees with left-wing. And you somehow think you are not being dishonest in this approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    (thanks for responding with a real argument and not making up wild accusations, I will respond in kind). Yes, I do want to emphasize the ideology side and not the surface side because that better reflects a person's beliefs. It gives insight into what motivates them, what they think is important, how they think, etc. Its what drives a person politically, so its vastly more important than a correlation between two ideologies. What I am looking for is who the person is and that is how I am making my distinction and that's how I am determining where I think they should be put on the spectrum.
    Too bad you're not actually doing any of that. You haven't considered ideology. You said that we agree more often with the right, thus we are right. When I said we agree with the left to, you said that doesn't count. You refuse to see anything that would show that on your little 1-D scale that libertarians would be centric and push every reasoning you can try to come up with to try to label us as right-wing. And then go the extra mile to add, "extreme"; making it extreme right-wing; which is an incorrect designation. As the extreme right-wing is a very fascist and authoritative philosophy.

    So that's what it is, you will accept or deny surface agreement depending on how it affects your argument. You're trying to reverse engineer something to get away from the fact that you do not have enough variables to properly identify and categorize the system.

    On the 1-D political axis, libertarians are centric.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #73
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So again, you cannot address the issues. And it's not "you are disagreeing with me, so you must be posting dishonestly"; thanks for again another DEFLECT from you. You're dishonest in how you present your argument. You take surface agreement as valid if it agrees with right-wing. You take surface agreement as invalid if it agrees with left-wing. And you somehow think you are not being dishonest in this approach.
    If you had read the post that you quoted,you would have noticed the part where I make a distinction between surface and ideological stuff. Than I linked it to right vs left wing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Too bad you're not actually doing any of that. You haven't considered ideology. You said that we agree more often with the right, thus we are right. When I said we agree with the left to, you said that doesn't count. You refuse to see anything that would show that on your little 1-D scale that libertarians would be centric and push every reasoning you can try to come up with to try to label us as right-wing. And then go the extra mile to add, "extreme"; making it extreme right-wing; which is an incorrect designation. As the extreme right-wing is a very fascist and authoritative philosophy.
    So you aren't going to address my point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So that's what it is, you will accept or deny surface agreement depending on how it affects your argument. You're trying to reverse engineer something to get away from the fact that you do not have enough variables to properly identify and categorize the system.

    On the 1-D political axis, libertarians are centric.
    Here is a quote from page 1. I have quoted the portion that shows the distinction I was making since that post.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Right wing philosophy is not a line, its more of a grouping of several smaller philosophies such as regan conservatives, goldwater conservatives, neoconservatives, etc. What those groups tend to have most in common is a point of view on finances (lower taxes, government does less stuff). However, few go so far as to want to go back to a gold standard, get rid of the fed, have basically no government (not anarchy), etc. In that vein I tend to see libertarian as more of a conservative philosophy..

  4. #74
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    If you had read the post that you quoted,you would have noticed the part where I make a distinction between surface and ideological stuff. Than I linked it to right vs left wing.
    I read your post, it was deflection

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    So you aren't going to address my point?
    I did. I pointed out your inconsistency with applying surface agreement and your incorrect designation of libertarians as extreme right-wing.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Here is a quote from page 1. I have quoted the portion that shows the distinction I was making since that post.
    Yes, and you'll consider that surface agreement as valid. Yet you will not consider surface agreement between libertarians and the left as valid. And because of it, you incorrectly label libertarians as extreme right-wing. We're certainly not. Your problem is that you're trying to fit the whole of the political spectrum with a single variable when multiple variables are necessary. On the 1-D mapping of the political spectrum using traditional right/left definitions; libertarianism is centric.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  5. #75
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I did. I pointed out your inconsistency with applying surface agreement and your incorrect designation of libertarians as extreme right-wing.

    Yes, and you'll consider that surface agreement as valid. Yet you will not consider surface agreement between libertarians and the left as valid. And because of it, you incorrectly label libertarians as extreme right-wing. We're certainly not. Your problem is that you're trying to fit the whole of the political spectrum with a single variable when multiple variables are necessary. On the 1-D mapping of the political spectrum using traditional right/left definitions; libertarianism is centric.

    Ok. Now to state something else that should be obvious to you (somehow it does not appear to be). If two ideologies agree at the ideology level, they are going to agree at the surface level because they tend to feel the same way about the same issues and will reach the same conclusions. So, what may appear to you to be a surface agreement may also be an ideological agreement. You are not understanding my argument because you are only looking at one side of it.

  6. #76
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Ok. Now to state something else that should be obvious to you (somehow it does not appear to be). If two ideologies agree at the ideology level, they are going to agree at the surface level because they tend to feel the same way about the same issues and will reach the same conclusions. So, what may appear to you to be a surface agreement may also be an ideological agreement. You are not understanding my argument because you are only looking at one side of it.
    No, I understand it just fine. You're willing to apply significance to surface agreement with libertarians and the right, but are not willing to apply any significance to surface agreement with libertarians and the left. Then without going into any of the political philosophies you have said surface agreement can be indicative of philosophical agreement; yet you never demonstrate this. You just state the surface agreement for one argument as valid, and the surface agreement for the other argument as invalid.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  7. #77
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, I understand it just fine. You're willing to apply significance to surface agreement with libertarians and the right, but are not willing to apply any significance to surface agreement with libertarians and the left. Then without going into any of the political philosophies you have said surface agreement can be indicative of philosophical agreement; yet you never demonstrate this. You just state the surface agreement for one argument as valid, and the surface agreement for the other argument as invalid.
    Please show me where I am showing a double standard. I am looking through my old posts and I am not seeing it.

  8. #78
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Considering you have not considered any underlying philosophy; it's where ever you've accepted surface agreement between libertarian and right while denying surface agreement between libertarian and left. Less now you're going to say that you didn't do any of that. Such as

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    No, I wanted to label the libertarians on the right wing because they tend to agree with right wing on economic ideas. I did not consider social ideas at all because you guys derive those differently. However, conservatives tend to almost go lock-step on economic ideas, so you guys are a good fit. The conservatives often disagree on social ideas, so they are not as important a consideration for me to use.
    In which you merely state the underlying principle is the same; but have no demonstration of it other than your statement. There are lots of things libertarians disagree with the right with. We're mostly non-interventionist, we don't agree in a lot of formal aid to other nations which the right agrees with. We don't agree with the Fed and how closed off it is to review, and that conflicts with many on the right (a small fraction of them accept the libertarian position). We're radically different on things like campaign finance as well. Along with the massive amounts of spending the right currently endorses. We're against things such as the Patriot Act, the Real ID Act, etc. which are well endorsed by the right. And these differences come from the differences in our political philosophies. Libertarianism is inherently minarchist. There is no minarchist philosophy left in the right/left designations.
    Last edited by Ikari; 08-09-10 at 06:15 PM.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #79
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Considering you have not considered any underlying philosophy; it's where ever you've accepted surface agreement between libertarian and right while denying surface agreement between libertarian and left. Less now you're going to say that you didn't do any of that.
    So you are going to accuse me of something and not back it up?

  10. #80
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    So you are going to accuse me of something and not back it up?
    Are you going to show me where you discussed fundamental libertarian philosophy then?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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