View Poll Results: Do you think we need more Independent/3rd party Senators and Congressmen?

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  • Yes

    23 74.19%
  • No

    5 16.13%
  • I don't know

    1 3.23%
  • Other

    2 6.45%
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Thread: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

  1. #61
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I don't like it on a personal level, not at all.
    My beliefs are idealistic, I'll admit but I'm also a pragmatist.

    Meaning that, if the world doesn't accept my good ideas, I use the world's exploitative aspects for my benefit.
    That's why I own stock and the like.
    Well there's a huge problem with taking this personhood thing too far, and we just saw it not too long ago with campaign finance and donation. How the hell is it that We the People still stand constrained while companies were given a free pass? Total BS if you ask me.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  2. #62
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    tacomancer's Avatar
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You have no evidence. I've already shown how everything is a farce. Your "reasoning" are muddled. Your terms of definitions already claimed. You have no foot to stand on. You have not presented one rational defense for your incorrect categorization of libertarians.
    All you have done is posted your opinion. I have yet to see a valid reason to change how I see things. You would do good to be more like Harry and post a fact rather than accusations of dishonesty and opinion. He actually made me think and rereason, you have not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I think you have a preconceived notion of what you'd like libertarians to be and you're trying hard to force us into a category already claimed and one which does not fit us.
    I probably do have a preconceived notion, but I think it is an accurate one, so I have no interest in changing it. Centrists tend to be in the middle, not off to the right.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 08-09-10 at 02:49 PM.

  3. #63
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well there's a huge problem with taking this personhood thing too far, and we just saw it not too long ago with campaign finance and donation. How the hell is it that We the People still stand constrained while companies were given a free pass? Total BS if you ask me.
    True enough, idealistically I'm against it.
    As long as the world is like it is now, I'm for it.

    I align myself with what best serves my best interest.
    Heh, I bought shares of BP on the cheap because it was a great move financially.
    Although I do think their safety record is **** and unconscionable, no one is going to do a thing about it.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  4. #64
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    All you have done is posted your opinion. I have yet to see a valid reason to change how I see things. You would do good to be more like Harry and post a fact rather than accusations of dishonesty and opinion. He actually made me think and rereason, you have not.
    You have not read anything, you've merely tried to promote your bias. I gave plenty of reasons to show why extreme right-wing is incorrect designation. You just don't want to accept it so you keep going.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I probably do have a preconceived notion, but I think it is an accurate one, so I have no interest in changing it. Centrists tend to be in the middle, not off to the right.
    And you have just highlighted every reason why you'd refuse to hear logic or argument against your incorrect designations. On the 1-D political scale, libertarians are centric.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  5. #65
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    True enough, idealistically I'm against it.
    As long as the world is like it is now, I'm for it.

    I align myself with what best serves my best interest.
    Heh, I bought shares of BP on the cheap because it was a great move financially.
    Although I do think their safety record is **** and unconscionable, no one is going to do a thing about it.
    Maybe not, but it's entirely possible they are prohibited from operating in the US. But with our corporate capitalist system we currently have, there is little punishment for wrong doing.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  6. #66
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You have not read anything, you've merely tried to promote your bias. I gave plenty of reasons to show why extreme right-wing is incorrect designation. You just don't want to accept it so you keep going.
    I love how you call opinion bias and than you accuse me of not wanting to accept some thing. Are you making an emotional or logical argument?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    And you have just highlighted every reason why you'd refuse to hear logic or argument against your incorrect designations. On the 1-D political scale, libertarians are centric.
    So you keep insisting. I have shown you why I do not think that you are correct. All you have done is insist that you are centrist using faulty reasoning that libertarians happen to agree with liberals with some issues (on the surface, but not because they believe the same thing, so its moot)

  7. #67
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Maybe not, but it's entirely possible they are prohibited from operating in the US. But with our corporate capitalist system we currently have, there is little punishment for wrong doing.
    Promise you, they'll get a slap on the wrist.
    Share price is moving in the + direction quickly, as proof.

    Agreed on the latter.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  8. #68
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I love how you call opinion bias and than you accuse me of not wanting to accept some thing. Are you making an emotional or logical argument?
    Hell yes I did. That's all I do. You want to call libertarians extreme right-wing and have made every attempt to try to justify it. Problem is, that terms already taken. And it's taken by a group of people who are opposite of the libertarians. All I've been saying is that you need a second axis so that you can define terms well more accurately. You're the one that says "I don't think I need one" blah blah blah. What sort of argument is that? I mean, besides piss poor. Yet time and time again that's the argument we get out of you. I think my bias of libertarians is valid. I think...I think...I think.... Problem is, it's becoming clear that you don't. You made some tired, weak, BS argument to defend you calling libertarians extreme right-wing. You couldn't defend it with out the use of "I think it's good". And it's been shown to not only be inaccurate, but to have already been used as a common designation. And thus I have to think that you're doing this on purpose, because the alternative is that you actually didn't realize any of this. And I refuse to believe that a human capable of using a computer and at least posting on line would be unaware that "extreme right-wing" is already a designation for a group of people and one which is not compatible with libertarianism.

    It's like you invent a new product and call it a computer. Someone says that computers already exist. You respond with "You don't understand, It's a companion putter....com-puter. You don't know why I put those words there in that order, blah blah blah". It doesn't matter why (and someone should be aware the term "computer" already exists). It's purposefully making a muddled and confused terminology. And I am left with either you really don't understand that or you're doing it on purpose. And for the sake of all humanity, I'm saying you're doing it on purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    So you keep insisting. I have shown you why I do not think that you are correct. All you have done is insist that you are centrist using faulty reasoning that libertarians happen to agree with liberals with some issues (on the surface, but not because they believe the same thing, so its moot)
    I have not used any faulty reasoning. You haven't actually addressed anything I said. You're reasoning is muddled and changes argument depending on what you want. Like not being able to consider libertarians being in agreement with the left because we do so for different reasons; but ignoring that while we can agree with the right, we do it for different reasons. It's all YOUR personal bias. You change your arguments to put forth incorrect rhetoric and categorization to satisfy your ideal and bias of what libertarians are. And you ignore absolutely everything else which is counter to that.

    Sorry you can't argue, sorry that you do not have a point, sorry that you're left with "well I think it's fine" defense. But that's all there is to your incorrect designation of libertarians. You've lost.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #69
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Hell yes I did. That's all I do. You want to call libertarians extreme right-wing and have made every attempt to try to justify it. Problem is, that terms already taken. And it's taken by a group of people who are opposite of the libertarians. All I've been saying is that you need a second axis so that you can define terms well more accurately. You're the one that says "I don't think I need one" blah blah blah. What sort of argument is that? I mean, besides piss poor. Yet time and time again that's the argument we get out of you. I think my bias of libertarians is valid. I think...I think...I think.... Problem is, it's becoming clear that you don't. You made some tired, weak, BS argument to defend you calling libertarians extreme right-wing. You couldn't defend it with out the use of "I think it's good". And it's been shown to not only be inaccurate, but to have already been used as a common designation. And thus I have to think that you're doing this on purpose, because the alternative is that you actually didn't realize any of this. And I refuse to believe that a human capable of using a computer and at least posting on line would be unaware that "extreme right-wing" is already a designation for a group of people and one which is not compatible with libertarianism.
    Ahh, so you have a preconceived notion of the term extremist. Thats ok, there are multiple types of extremists and they don't all have to agree. From the rest of the post, I can see you dislike the term for emotional reasons. I cannot help you with that.

    Also, you seem to confusing your piss-poor arguing for something being wrong with me. I cannot help you with that either. I get along with most people here just fine without all the emotionality you seem to be posting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's like you invent a new product and call it a computer. Someone says that computers already exist. You respond with "You don't understand, It's a companion putter....com-puter. You don't know why I put those words there in that order, blah blah blah". It doesn't matter why (and someone should be aware the term "computer" already exists). It's purposefully making a muddled and confused terminology. And I am left with either you really don't understand that or you're doing it on purpose. And for the sake of all humanity, I'm saying you're doing it on purpose.
    Except in this case its fits. See my point above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I have not used any faulty reasoning. You haven't actually addressed anything I said. You're reasoning is muddled and changes argument depending on what you want. Like not being able to consider libertarians being in agreement with the left because we do so for different reasons; but ignoring that while we can agree with the right, we do it for different reasons. It's all YOUR personal bias. You change your arguments to put forth incorrect rhetoric and categorization to satisfy your ideal and bias of what libertarians are. And you ignore absolutely everything else which is counter to that.
    Your reasoning is faulty because you assume that surface agreement is all that matters. I am looking deeper into the ideology itself, not where someone might happen to land on some issue. Look deeper and you will understand my point. I think this is where we should continue debating (you know, where the logic is, not your emotional statements in the above paragraphs).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Sorry you can't argue, sorry that you do not have a point, sorry that you're left with "well I think it's fine" defense. But that's all there is to your incorrect designation of libertarians. You've lost.
    You seem so desperate to declare yourself the winner, why is that?
    Last edited by tacomancer; 08-09-10 at 03:16 PM.

  10. #70
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Ahh, so you have a preconceived notion of the term extremist. Thats ok, there are multiple types of extremists and they don't all have to agree. From the rest of the post, I can see you dislike the term for emotional reasons. I cannot help you with that.
    No I don't. The word is fine if used correctly. You have not used it correctly. Libertarians are not extreme right-wing. There was nothing emotional is what I wrote. You're DEFLECTING AGAIN to try to get out of your argument. Or lack there of. Extremist is a fine term if used correctly. The term extreme right-wing is not appropriately applied to libertarians.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Also, you seem to confusing your piss-poor arguing for something being wrong with me. I cannot help you with that either. I get along with most people here just fine without all the emotionality you seem to be posting.
    None of my arguments are piss poor. If you wanted to read them for what they are, you would see that. Nothing I said is emotional, it's all built upon your incorrect definition of libertarianism as an extreme right-wing. You need another axis to correctly characterize it. You have insisted on not having one with no logical argument as to why. But this entire mess is caused by your refusal to properly designate political ideologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Except in this case its fits. See my point above.
    No it doesn't, and what point? You're making crap up now. Saying I don't like the word "extreme" or whatever BS you have to pull out of your ass to try to get yourself out of the hole you've dug yourself into.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Your reasoning is faulty because you assume that surface agreement is all that matters. I am looking deeper into the ideology itself, not where someone might happen to land on some issue. Look deeper and you will understand my point. I think this is where we should continue debating (you know, where the logic is, not your emotional statements in the above paragraphs).
    No I didn't assume either of that. You say that surface agreement counts when it is in favor of right-wing; but not when it is in favor of the left-wing. Fundamentally, libertarianism is very different from both the traditional left/right in its ideology and philosophy. Yet you want to apply significance to it one one side, and ignore it on the other side just to make your point. Talk about dishonest.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    You seem so desperate to declare yourself the winner, why is that?
    Some people just don't know when they've failed. It's public service.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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