View Poll Results: Do you think we need more Independent/3rd party Senators and Congressmen?

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  • Yes

    23 74.19%
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    5 16.13%
  • I don't know

    1 3.23%
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Thread: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

  1. #51
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Of course, you also think I am posting that I think libertarians are extremist conservatives while I think libertarians are conservatives + wacky extremist ideas. Its a subtle detail but it makes a huge difference in understanding. However, your insistance on a second axis is probably necessary for you to make sense of your arguments and political ideas, but I don't need such a crutch to understand natural law and the principals derived from it. I just think natural law is a bit crazy no matter how you want to chart it. So, go ahead and argue what internally makes sense to you, but if you feel that you have proven anything, than you are only looking at this from a single point of view instead of through many.
    No, I understand well what you did; and what you did was incorrect. You want to label the libertarians first as right-wing so you say that we tend to agree with the right more than the left. It's maybe at most a 60/40 split; which still would be more central; but whatever. Interestingly though, later you state that the reasons for agreement matter and because "liberals" and libertarians agree but for different reasons, that can't count. However, that was never expressed with the right side because that is also true on the right side. While we may statistically agree with the right more than the left, our reasons for supporting similar issues are not the same. But whatever, you need to do whatever it is you need to do to make this look the way you are trying to engineer it to look.

    So then you say, "I think these guys are crazy, so I'll call them extreme". Now you have extreme right-wing. The only problem is that libertarians are not extreme right-wing. So the designation is incorrect because you've restricted yourself to only left/right rhetoric. Libertarianism is not extreme right-wing. And you just create a confused term (one already used for other designations) to try to apply it to libertarianism because you want us seen in a particular light. You play think that you do not need to clarify and thus need another axis; but you've created confusion and incorrect categorizations because of it. And if you think you've proven anything, than you are only looking at this from a single point of view instead of the whole system.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  2. #52
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, I understand well what you did; and what you did was incorrect. You want to label the libertarians first as right-wing so you say that we tend to agree with the right more than the left. It's maybe at most a 60/40 split; which still would be more central; but whatever. Interestingly though, later you state that the reasons for agreement matter and because "liberals" and libertarians agree but for different reasons, that can't count. However, that was never expressed with the right side because that is also true on the right side. While we may statistically agree with the right more than the left, our reasons for supporting similar issues are not the same. But whatever, you need to do whatever it is you need to do to make this look the way you are trying to engineer it to look.
    No, I wanted to label the libertarians on the right wing because they tend to agree with right wing on economic ideas. I did not consider social ideas at all because you guys derive those differently. However, conservatives tend to almost go lock-step on economic ideas, so you guys are a good fit. The conservatives often disagree on social ideas, so they are not as important a consideration for me to use.

    You need to be less paranoid and stop assuming I am trying to be dishonest too. I post what I honestly think, if I were trolling, I would have gotten bored a while ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So then you say, "I think these guys are crazy, so I'll call them extreme". Now you have extreme right-wing.
    This is where you are getting confused. You are ignoring the distinction I pointed out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The only problem is that libertarians are not extreme right-wing. So the designation is incorrect because you've restricted yourself to only left/right rhetoric. Libertarianism is not extreme right-wing.
    Yes, you keep insisting that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    And you just create a confused term (one already used for other designations) to try to apply it to libertarianism because you want us seen in a particular light.
    I don't want to see you guys in any particular light. I have no agenda here. You are being paranoid again. However, you guys tend to be extreme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You play think that you do not need to clarify and thus need another axis; but you've created confusion and incorrect categorizations because of it. And if you think you've proven anything, than you are only looking at this from a single point of view instead of the whole system.
    Its not play, I honestly don't think its necessary.

    However, I did learn something very important here. You think I am being dishonest because I disagree with your reasoning. I find this disturbing.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 08-09-10 at 02:30 PM.

  3. #53
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    No, I wanted to label the libertarians on the right wing because they tend to agree with right wing on economic ideas. I did not consider social ideas at all because you guys derive those differently. However, conservatives tend to almost go lock-step on economic ideas, so you guys are a good fit. The conservatives often disagree on social ideas, so they are not as important. The extremist part is another consideration. Please stop confusing the two.
    A lot of people think that but it's only partially true.
    Economically, we are split between conservatives and liberals, with a whole lot of our own ideas.

    Libertarians reject corporate person hood, as well as, industry protectionism.
    Two very major things that conservatives accept as good.

    Only in a very broad sense can libertarians and conservatives be seen as the same, in regards to economics.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  4. #54
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    A lot of people think that but it's only partially true.
    Economically, we are split between conservatives and liberals, with a whole lot of our own ideas.

    Libertarians reject corporate person hood, as well as, industry protectionism.
    Two very major things that conservatives accept as good.

    Only in a very broad sense can libertarians and conservatives be seen as the same, in regards to economics.
    Ah, yeah, I forgot about the corporate personhood thing. That is actually a very good idea.

  5. #55
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    So you basically once again will skip over all the points I made. Are you going to also condemn me again this time for the same. You want to label libertarians, true. You want to label them as conservative, true. You want to ignore the rest of our political platform because it's inconvenient for the designation you want to make, true. You want to ignore the reasons we may happen to agree with the right for in order to make your designation easier, true. You wish to dismiss any agreement we have with the left so you say it can't count cause we have different reasons (even though the reasoning wasn't necessary for lumping us in with the right), true. Now you want to say "hey they're also extremeists", true. So you just nonchalantly throw that onto the front, true. And you continue to ignore my points because it makes it easier for you, true. Otherwise you wouldn't have said "please stop confusing the two", because I clearly didn't in the very post you had quoted in your post.

    I know why you did it, it's very clear why you did it. It's also very clear as to why your designation and categorization of libertarian politics is wrong. But you don't want to address anything. You just want to promote your bias. Libertarians are not extreme right-wing. No matter how much you try to dance around it. That term already exists, and it already exists for a group to which libertarians do not exist. You are being confused and muddled in your rhetoric. That is why you need a different term, a new axis, so that you can more accurately categorize. But you really don't seem to want to, so what we have left is you calling libertarians extreme right-wing when we are in fact not extreme right-wing. One the 1-D scale you want to use, we're centrists. But that's the problem with the 1-D, it restricts us to one variable. And you don't want to say libertarians are centrists because you probably envision centrists as something different from libertarians (most likely, you wouldn't view a centrist as "extreme" while you want to view libertarians as such). So you got to make something us, and the designation you'd like best to call libertarians is extreme right-wing so you made up some ignorant argument about how you could put the words together. And less you're missing half your brain, you did so full well knowing the implications of calling a party "extreme right-wing".

    Sorry that you can't argue your way out of a paper bag or defend your improper designations, but that's just measured reality right there. Again, for all the reasons thus far stated in this thread; you are wrong.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  6. #56
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Ah, yeah, I forgot about the corporate personhood thing. That is actually a very good idea.
    A lot of people don't understand our "free market" stance for that singular reason alone.
    Things would be incredibly different if the owners of corporations were personally liable for decisions they make with their businesses.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  7. #57
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So you basically once again will skip over all the points I made. Are you going to also condemn me again this time for the same. You want to label libertarians, true. You want to label them as conservative, true. You want to ignore the rest of our political platform because it's inconvenient for the designation you want to make, true. You want to ignore the reasons we may happen to agree with the right for in order to make your designation easier, true. You wish to dismiss any agreement we have with the left so you say it can't count cause we have different reasons (even though the reasoning wasn't necessary for lumping us in with the right), true. Now you want to say "hey they're also extremeists", true. So you just nonchalantly throw that onto the front, true. And you continue to ignore my points because it makes it easier for you, true. Otherwise you wouldn't have said "please stop confusing the two", because I clearly didn't in the very post you had quoted in your post.
    I am making an argument based on what I feel is proper evidence. You disagree that the evidence is valid. However, I am not going to change my opinion to suit you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I know why you did it, it's very clear why you did it. It's also very clear as to why your designation and categorization of libertarian politics is wrong. But you don't want to address anything. You just want to promote your bias. Libertarians are not extreme right-wing. No matter how much you try to dance around it. That term already exists, and it already exists for a group to which libertarians do not exist. You are being confused and muddled in your rhetoric. That is why you need a different term, a new axis, so that you can more accurately categorize. But you really don't seem to want to, so what we have left is you calling libertarians extreme right-wing when we are in fact not extreme right-wing. One the 1-D scale you want to use, we're centrists. But that's the problem with the 1-D, it restricts us to one variable. And you don't want to say libertarians are centrists because you probably envision centrists as something different from libertarians (most likely, you wouldn't view a centrist as "extreme" while you want to view libertarians as such). So you got to make something us, and the designation you'd like best to call libertarians is extreme right-wing so you made up some ignorant argument about how you could put the words together. And less you're missing half your brain, you did so full well knowing the implications of calling a party "extreme right-wing".

    Sorry that you can't argue your way out of a paper bag or defend your improper designations, but that's just measured reality right there. Again, for all the reasons thus far stated in this thread; you are wrong.
    Well, if you cannot address me without thinking I am dishonest, there is no use in debating you. Good day.

    However, I do find it interesting that you would accuse me of it. Do you really feel that I am being dishonest or are you trying to gain some sort of advantage. If its the latter, there is probably no point because I see no legitimate reason to change my opinion.

    Edit: The bold statement gets to the heart of the matter. Centrists are between the two extremes, not on one side with some odd stuff mixed in.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 08-09-10 at 02:41 PM.

  8. #58
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    A lot of people don't understand our "free market" stance for that singular reason alone.
    Things would be incredibly different if the owners of corporations were personally liable for decisions they make with their businesses.
    True that. Additionally, it doesn't make a lot of sense to try to define some corporate personhood either. A corporation is not a person, nor is it an entity which possesses rights. Only the individual does.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #59
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I am making an argument based on what I feel is proper evidence. You disagree that the evidence is valid. However, I am not going to change my opinion to suit you.
    You have no evidence. I've already shown how everything is a farce. Your "reasoning" are muddled. Your terms of definitions already claimed. You have no foot to stand on. You have not presented one rational defense for your incorrect categorization of libertarians.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Well, if you cannot address me without thinking I am dishonest, there is no use in debating you. Good day.

    However, I do find it interesting that you would accuse me of it. Do you really feel that I am being dishonest or are you trying to gain some sort of advantage. If its the latter, there is probably no point because I see no legitimate reason to change my opinion.
    I think you have a preconceived notion of what you'd like libertarians to be and you're trying hard to force us into a category already claimed and one which does not fit us.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #60
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    True that. Additionally, it doesn't make a lot of sense to try to define some corporate personhood either. A corporation is not a person, nor is it an entity which possesses rights. Only the individual does.
    I don't like it on a personal level, not at all.
    My beliefs are idealistic, I'll admit but I'm also a pragmatist.

    Meaning that, if the world doesn't accept my good ideas, I use the world's exploitative aspects for my benefit.
    That's why I own stock and the like.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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