View Poll Results: Do you think we need more Independent/3rd party Senators and Congressmen?

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  • Yes

    23 74.19%
  • No

    5 16.13%
  • I don't know

    1 3.23%
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    2 6.45%
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Thread: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

  1. #41
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Them agreeing with the right more than the left is why I consider them right wing. The extreme part comes later. You are confusing two points and thinking that they are the same.
    No. You put us on a 1-D scale and called us extreme right-wing. It doesn't fit the designation given what is common with the extreme right-wing. The one who is confused is you. You want to say we're "right-wing" because sometimes at least on the most visible problems we have higher tendency to agree with the right. Then you want to add extreme because you want to try to make us out as something that easily fits your preconceived notions of what libertarians are. Thus you call us "extreme right-wing"; but we are not extreme right wing because the extreme-right wing is counter to everything libertarians stand for.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Of course. Whether a person thinks something is extreme is largely an opinion. I see no problem there. But I think you misunderstood, you guys are not extreme conservatives, you guys are just extreme and happen to have more in common with conservatives, enough that you are essentially a conservative philosophy with a bit of weird mixed in ( only wanting private roads, etc). The extremism and the conservativism are separate functions that junction (I like rhyming :P)
    Then you're going to need another axis. Because your current designation of libertarians as extreme right-wing is incorrect and based in ignorance.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Blah blah blah
    Go on and just throw out arguments you don't like. Shows your weak debate skills. But the point is that on a 1-D mapping of the political grid, libertarianism is well more in line with classic liberalism than anything else. And if we're just using one dimensional political designation then you have the extreme right on one side which has a lot of authoritative and fascist ideals and the extreme left on the other side which would have communism and socialism; both which require big State government in the end. So you have big state government on the extreme right, big state government on the extreme left. So where's the minimal State government where true liberals and libertarians would find themselves? Somewhere in the middle.

    So once again, you designation of libertarians as extreme right-wing is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Because something is similar does not mean it is the same. Like I posted, liberals and libertarians tend to agree on some social stances for completely different reasons, so any correlation there is moot.
    There are many issues the new liberals and libertarians (the old liberals) would agree on. It's yet another reason why libertarians are not an extreme right-wing philosophy.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Weird stuff like wanting to get rid of paper money is pretty extreme. But again, its an opinion thing.
    That's not all of us, and that's not an extreme right-wing view point. It's a minarchist view point; but you aren't allowing for that axis.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Ahh authoritative stuff. Thats why libertarians and liberals might find themselves on the same side of stuff, but for different reasons. That was part of my point. You cannot say you have much in common with liberals if you agree on stuff for completely different reasons.
    So? We don't agree with conservatives all the time for the same reasons; yet you seem so much more willing to throw us in with them because we agree with them sometimes. So what is it? Does the reasoning count or no? If no, then we're even closer to center on your 1-D axis.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    We will agree to disagree on this one.
    You can disagree all you want, real world measurements says you're wrong. Along with your incorrect designation of libertarians as extreme right-wing.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  2. #42
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    I would respond to you Ikari, but you have no responded to my points, so I see no use in it, except the blah blah blah part. The reason I responded that way was because I think you should use an argument that has some bearing on what we are talking about. As for the rest, my suggestion is to reread my posts and figure out what I am actually posting.

  3. #43
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    So am I. And you arent going to change the fed. So if you want greater legislative control of the government BY the people, it has to come locally.
    No, because local and state governments are just as prone to corruption as the federal government is. Greater autonomy for state governments won't empower the people - all it will do is reduce the ability of the people to use the federal government to resist corruption in state governments. It would be better to produce a system for popular initiatives at the federal level so people can directly affect it without having state governments, which are corruptible, involved.

  4. #44
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I would respond to you Ikari, but you have no responded to my points, so I see no use in it, except the blah blah blah part. The reason I responded that way was because I think you should use an argument that has some bearing on what we are talking about. As for the rest, my suggestion is to reread my posts and figure out what I am actually posting.
    I read what you actually posted I responded to all your argument.. You posted crap arguments and bias; that's it. I've given you every reason why a) The 1-D political mapping doesn't allow for proper designation of political platforms and b) why your designation of libertarian as extreme right-wing is incorrect.

    Sorry you lost this one and now you have to run away; but that's just life. Learn to deal with it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  5. #45
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I read what you actually posted. You posted crap arguments and bias; that's it. I've given you every reason why a) The 1-D political mapping doesn't allow for proper designation of political platforms and b) why your designation of libertarian as extreme right-wing is incorrect.

    Sorry you lost this one and now you have to run away; but that's just life. Learn to deal with it.
    I am not running away, but I am giving up because you aren't learning, so there is no point in trying to teach you.

    However, when you counter my points or even address them, I will be happy to continue this.

  6. #46
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Why blamethe system? most third parties continually shoot themselves in the foot...start there when assessing blame. Then move on to "we the people". Most people in this coutry are wrapped up tight and securely in their ideologies. They vote party ticket. They tolerate the same scumbags every two and six years going back. IF they bother to vote at all.
    Read up on Duverger's Law.

    Duverger's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    It states that the type of electoral system a nation has directly influences the party system it develops.

  7. #47
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I am not running away, but I am giving up because you aren't learning, so there is no point in trying to teach you.
    It's because what you're trying to teach is crap. There's no reason to sit and learn incorrect lessons. You are doing exactly what you accuse me of doing, BTW. So when you're trying to throw those stones at me, be careful of your own glass house.

    End result is that you don't have what it takes (i.e. a proper argument) to defend your position or your designation of the libertarian political platform. All you have are your preconceived notions and biases towards libertarians, and a strong desire to incorrectly label us as extreme right-wing.
    Last edited by Ikari; 08-09-10 at 01:55 PM.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  8. #48
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's because what you're trying to teach is crap. There's no reason to sit and learn incorrect lessons. You are doing exactly what you accuse me of doing, BTW. So when you're trying to throw those stones at me, be careful of your own glass house.
    Did I somehow not address your points or argue something that you did not intend? If so, than yes, we did the same thing.

  9. #49
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Did I somehow not address your points or argue something that you did not intend? If so, than yes, we did the same thing.
    Yes, you did exactly that. In fact, you'd just get to "well have to agree to disagree" when backed into a corner about needing another axis to properly identify and catagorize libertarian politics.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #50
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yes, you did exactly that. In fact, you'd just get to "well have to agree to disagree" when backed into a corner about needing another axis to properly identify and catagorize libertarian politics.
    Well, if I did not address your points, I regret that, it seems we missed each other as we often do.

    However, I think the crux of our argument is the word properly, you feel it is necessary, and I do not.

    Of course, you also think I am posting that I think libertarians are extremist conservatives while I think libertarians are conservatives + wacky extremist ideas. Its a subtle detail but it makes a huge difference in understanding. However, your insistance on a second axis is probably necessary for you to make sense of your arguments and political ideas, but I don't need such a crutch to understand natural law and the principals derived from it. I just think natural law is a bit crazy no matter how you want to chart it. So, go ahead and argue what internally makes sense to you, but if you feel that you have proven anything, than you are only looking at this from a single point of view instead of through many.

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