View Poll Results: Do you think we need more Independent/3rd party Senators and Congressmen?

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  • Yes

    23 74.19%
  • No

    5 16.13%
  • I don't know

    1 3.23%
  • Other

    2 6.45%
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Thread: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

  1. #21
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Do you honestly not understand the implications of that? It's not saying we're extreme right wing because we may agree on average more with the "right" than the "left". You can ask a group of people if they prefer up or down more, and they may answer that they like up more. That doesn't make them extreme up. You're making a logical fallacy by trying to say because libertarians may agree with the right more than they are extreme right. It doesn't logically follow.
    Them agreeing with the right more than the left is why I consider them right wing. The extreme part comes later. You are confusing two points and thinking that they are the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    And there's the "Exactly!". What you consider. This designation of libertarians as "extreme right wing" is based on your personal preferences and biases. Nothing more.
    Of course. Whether a person thinks something is extreme is largely an opinion. I see no problem there. But I think you misunderstood, you guys are not extreme conservatives, you guys are just extreme and happen to have more in common with conservatives, enough that you are essentially a conservative philosophy with a bit of weird mixed in ( only wanting private roads, etc). The extremism and the conservativism are separate functions that junction (I like rhyming :P)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It indeed does, since libertarianism still holds true to classical liberalism as a political philosophy. It's not extreme left or right.
    Blah blah blah

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Nor does it mean that we are extreme right. It means that on average we may have a slight preference for the right over the left. It doesn't mean we never agree with the left. Nor does it mean that we are extreme right. Jesus, it's called statistics, learn it.
    Because something is similar does not mean it is the same. Like I posted, liberals and libertarians tend to agree on some social stances for completely different reasons, so any correlation there is moot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yes, at best, you can say we're right of center. That is not extreme right.
    Weird stuff like wanting to get rid of paper money is pretty extreme. But again, its an opinion thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No I didn't. You made logical fallacies and followed your own biases to get yourself to that outcome. Libertarianism is not a strict "right-wing" philosophy. We in fact differ on many accounts with the right wing. And we cannot follow the extremes of right wing philosophy which tends to adopt authoritative of fascist governments. Hence, libertarianism cannot be extreme right.
    Ahh authoritative stuff. Thats why libertarians and liberals might find themselves on the same side of stuff, but for different reasons. That was part of my point. You cannot say you have much in common with liberals if you agree on stuff for completely different reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Just because you don't think a 2nd metric is necessary doesn't mean that it's not. You're trying to place people into preconceived boxes without allowing for proper identification of personal political philosophies or overall political platforms of a party.
    We will agree to disagree on this one.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 08-06-10 at 08:21 PM.

  2. #22
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    No.

    Time to vote the Democrats out of office. They've done enough damage over the last 60 years. Time to put them in the dustbin of history, where the trash can complain about the smell.

    Then, if the replacement Republicans aren't smart enough to swing to the right where they have to be, replace them.

    But the FIRST priority MUST be depowering the Messiah and derailing his evil agenda.

  3. #23
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    We should take the term "liberal" back!
    No, it's tainted. Let the socialists keep it.

  4. #24
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    You yourself stated twice why it is [a strict right wing philosophy]
    Then again, libertarianism is NOT a strict right wing philosophy.

    Socialism and "liberalism" and "progressivism" and whatever name the anti-American left has coined to hide behind weed IS an extreme left wing philosophy, and as far as those irrational people are concerned, anyone that opposes anything they want is a "right wing extremist".

    The reality is that libertarianism is at odds with many right-wing notions.

    Right wingers LIKE certain forms of government control and interference. Drugs, for example, are to the right what guns are to the socialist left. But libertarians regard the possession of both drugs and guns by a responsible citizen as their constitutional right to choose.

    Many self-proclaimed libertarians are confused and support the "right" of women to murder babies. That moves them well to the left of sane people.

    Libertarians do believe that people who earn a living should not be taxed simply to transfer wealth to people who will not earn a living. In the eyes of the extreme left, this makes libertarians "right wing". The extreme left is wrong, the notion that people should not be robbed to support those who will not work is as American as Captain John Smith of Jamestown Colony.

    The right wingers want people punished who burn American flags. The libertarians want people punished who burn American flags if they did not own that flag or if that little bit of arson leads to damage to someone else's property.

    Libertarians do not oppose same-sex marriage, simply because it's not their business to tell others who they can't marry. The left supports same sex marriage for obscure emotional reasons no one can figure out. The right opposes same sex marriage because they're mired in traditions different from the lefties.

    Libertarians can see easily that the government's deficit problem is a spending-too-much problem, not a taxes-are-too-low-on-the-rich problem.

  5. #25
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Only if you wish to do so as a protest vote. I've been paying attention to US politics for over thirty years, and it is hard enough for any 3rd party candidate to win an election for dogcatcher, let alone Senator or even Congressman. Most of the "Independents" who are in the Congress are Indi in name only, they're actually affiliated with one of the Big Two one way or another.

    I've voted Libertarian or Constitution Pty at times, but not with any expectation of winning: just because the two pragmatic choices were both so utterly morally repulsive to me that I could not bear to put my name to either.

    A lot will have to change before any 3rd party can expect to wield real political power in the US.
    Which is why I vote Libertarian. I wont not vote, and I have no illusions of winning...but I'll be damned if I cast my vote with any of the dem or rep slugs. Unfortunatley 3rd parties tend to self destruct when it comes to choosing candidates and platforms.

  6. #26
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    The Whig Party is a centrist party. We now have our first candidate running for Congress in Virginia. He has not yet announced his adoption of the Whig Party, which just happened this past week, but we are working on going public. At that time, I will announce it here.

  7. #27
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    So basically a return to states rights...
    Not at all. I think state governments are just as corrupt as the federal government.

    I'm talking about popular initiatives on the federal level, where voters can directly make legislation. At the very least, I think the people should be able to use popular initiatives to override unpopular laws made by the federal government. While the people may not deserve the power to write laws, they should at least have the power to recall them.

  8. #28
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    The Whig Party is a centrist party. We now have our first candidate running for Congress in Virginia. He has not yet announced his adoption of the Whig Party, which just happened this past week, but we are working on going public. At that time, I will announce it here.
    I've looked at the Whig Party for my state, and it is too conservative for me. While I support Congress taking back more of it's power from the Presidency, I do not support things such as repealing the direct election of Senators and their stance on taxation.

    Unfortunately, there is not an independent party whose platform is close to my political views. I see myself as left-leaning, but few independent parties are left-leaning; most of them are on the far-left.

  9. #29
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    I've looked at the Whig Party for my state, and it is too conservative for me. While I support Congress taking back more of it's power from the Presidency, I do not support things such as repealing the direct election of Senators and their stance on taxation.

    Unfortunately, there is not an independent party whose platform is close to my political views. I see myself as left-leaning, but few independent parties are left-leaning; most of them are on the far-left.
    Where was there an expression of support for repealing direct elections of Senators? I oppose this completely.

    What is the stance of taxation that you don't agree with?

    The issue is that we are such a new small party that we attract moderates of all stripes and some of the ideas that have been floated are not moderate in my humble opinion. They are not part of the official philosophy. We want to be open enough to attract a membership, but certain things we need to keep in balance. To this end, we have consciously chosen to not specify explicit issues. Instead we express principles.

  10. #30
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Where was there an expression of support for repealing direct elections of Senators? I oppose this completely.

    What is the stance of taxation that you don't agree with?

    The issue is that we are such a new small party that we attract moderates of all stripes and some of the ideas that have been floated are not moderate in my humble opinion. They are not part of the official philosophy. We want to be open enough to attract a membership, but certain things we need to keep in balance. To this end, we have consciously chosen to not specify explicit issues. Instead we express principles.
    As I said, this was the stance of the state Whig Party, which may or may not be affiliated with the national convention for the Modern Whig Party.

    While I support the Modern Whig Party in increasing in order to bring about more political diversity in the U.S., it seems to be a bit more conservative that my personal politics, which is why I can't join it as a member in good conscience. I'd probably just wind up splitting from it anyways if I were to join.

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