View Poll Results: Do you think we need more Independent/3rd party Senators and Congressmen?

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  • Yes

    23 74.19%
  • No

    5 16.13%
  • I don't know

    1 3.23%
  • Other

    2 6.45%
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Thread: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

  1. #11
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Having more third parties adds in a new political problem.

    Take the UK as an example. Their parliamentary system sometimes suffers because there are several different major factions in play and these factions often make and break alliances on certain issues and the focus is often on infighting between different groups.

    More political groups often means more fighting and dealing for allies rather than focusing on issues. A deadlock is also a more frequent occurrence on issues

    Not saying that third parties are bad, just that they have their own political hangups and are not a magic cure for political gridlock.
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  2. #12
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Right wing philosophy is not a line, its more of a grouping of several smaller philosophies such as regan conservatives, goldwater conservatives, neoconservatives, etc. What those groups tend to have most in common is a point of view on finances (lower taxes, government does less stuff). However, few go so far as to want to go back to a gold standard, get rid of the fed, have basically no government (not anarchy), etc. In that vein I tend to see libertarian as more of a conservative philosophy.

    In social stuff, conservative philosophies can be all over the map and the various subphilosophies tend to have less cohesion over all. So libertarianism, being more liberal on those matters does not really matter as much.
    Actually it does since you're using some left/right reasoning you've allowed for no other axis. Thus in the 1-D mapping of Libertarianism onto the left/right plane, it would fall well more center. I think you wanting to say it's far right wing is due only to preconceived notions on your part.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  3. #13
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Zawisza View Post
    I think it'd be great if neoconservatism and liberalism didn't have a monopoly on American politics. I'd be more pleased with libertarian-minded ones running for office, but I'm just being biased there. =P
    As a fellow libertarian, I feel sort of offended that you would actually use the word "liberalism" to define today's American fundamentalist democrat. I believe "liberals" should stop calling themselves "liberal" because it shows that they don't even know what the term implies. If an American "liberal" democrat were to go to Europe and champion for "liberal" policies, he would be humiliated by all the finger-pointing and ridicule. In Europe, the "liberals" are the minority in politics. They're the dead parties of tories and other "anti-union," pro-free trade, minimalist libertarian. A libertarian in this country best defines the classical liberals of Europe. We should take the term "liberal" back!

  4. #14
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Actually it does since you're using some left/right reasoning you've allowed for no other axis. Thus in the 1-D mapping of Libertarianism onto the left/right plane, it would fall well more center. I think you wanting to say it's far right wing is due only to preconceived notions on your part.
    I think 1 axis is plenty.

    Not a scientific poll, but there is also this. http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...ght-folks.html
    Last edited by tacomancer; 08-06-10 at 07:17 PM.

  5. #15
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I think 1 axis is plenty.

    Not a scientific poll, but there is also this. Libertarians: which do you identify with more, the Left or Right? - View Poll Results
    Then there you have it, libertarianism is more central on that mapping.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  6. #16
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Then there you have it, libertarianism is more central on that mapping.
    Wait, what, can you not read the poll? its 22 to 7 in favor of the right.

    Besides I already posted to the point of the whole 1 vs 2 axis thing. So far you have not given a decent reason why libertarians would be more in the center.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 08-06-10 at 07:22 PM.

  7. #17
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Wait, what, can you not read the poll? its 22 to 7 in favor of the right.

    Besides I already posted to the point of the whole 1 vs 2 axis thing. So far you have not given a decent reason why libertarians would be more in the center.
    That's choosing which side you most agree with. Many libertarians may find themselves agreeing more with the right than left; but that doesn't mean they are an extreme right-wing philosophy. Libertarianism is in fact classical liberalism. There are issues on both sides of the isle that libertarians can agree with. I suppose you can say that statistically we may be more right of center than anything else. But it's not a strict right wing philosophy. On the extremes of the right side lies authoritative/fascist types of governorship, of which libertarians would never agree with. Because of this fact, on the 1-D metric, libertarianism would find itself in between right and left wing more centric since it contains ideals which are held in common with both sides.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  8. #18
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    That's choosing which side you most agree with.
    Exactly!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Many libertarians may find themselves agreeing more with the right than left; but that doesn't mean they are an extreme right-wing philosophy.
    Again, conservativism is a cluster of ideologies. However, the libertarian philosophy has many beliefs that I consider to be extreme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Libertarianism is in fact classical liberalism.
    The history lesson does not contribute to any greater point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    There are issues on both sides of the isle that libertarians can agree with.
    Libertarians tend to share more of their philosophy with conservatives. Often liberals and libertarians might find themselves on the same side of an argument for different reasons. This does not mean that they are the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I suppose you can say that statistically we may be more right of center than anything else
    .

    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    But it's not a strict right wing philosophy.
    You yourself stated twice why it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    On the extremes of the right side lies authoritative/fascist types of governorship, of which libertarians would never agree with. Because of this fact, on the 1-D metric, libertarianism would find itself in between right and left wing more centric since it contains ideals which are held in common with both sides.
    I don't think the 2d metric is useful. But again, you guys agree with the right far more than you do with the left. Your own words.

  9. #19
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jucon View Post
    Do you think we need more Independent/3rd party Senators and Congressmen?

    Why or why not? And if so, how many and from which parties?

    Only if you wish to do so as a protest vote. I've been paying attention to US politics for over thirty years, and it is hard enough for any 3rd party candidate to win an election for dogcatcher, let alone Senator or even Congressman. Most of the "Independents" who are in the Congress are Indi in name only, they're actually affiliated with one of the Big Two one way or another.

    I've voted Libertarian or Constitution Pty at times, but not with any expectation of winning: just because the two pragmatic choices were both so utterly morally repulsive to me that I could not bear to put my name to either.

    A lot will have to change before any 3rd party can expect to wield real political power in the US.

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  10. #20
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    Re: Time to vote for Independents/3rd Parties?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Exactly!
    Do you honestly not understand the implications of that? It's not saying we're extreme right wing because we may agree on average more with the "right" than the "left". You can ask a group of people if they prefer up or down more, and they may answer that they like up more. That doesn't make them extreme up. You're making a logical fallacy by trying to say because libertarians may agree with the right more than they are extreme right. It doesn't logically follow.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Again, conservativism is a cluster of ideologies. However, the libertarian philosophy has many beliefs that I consider to be extreme.
    And there's the "Exactly!". What you consider. This designation of libertarians as "extreme right wing" is based on your personal preferences and biases. Nothing more.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    The history lesson does not contribute to any greater point.
    It indeed does, since libertarianism still holds true to classical liberalism as a political philosophy. It's not extreme left or right.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Libertarians tend to share more of their philosophy with conservatives. Often liberals and libertarians might find themselves on the same side of an argument for different reasons. This does not mean that they are the same.
    Nor does it mean that we are extreme right. It means that on average we may have a slight preference for the right over the left. It doesn't mean we never agree with the left. Nor does it mean that we are extreme right. Jesus, it's called statistics, learn it.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Exactly.
    Yes, at best, you can say we're right of center. That is not extreme right.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    You yourself stated twice why it is.
    No I didn't. You made logical fallacies and followed your own biases to get yourself to that outcome. Libertarianism is not a strict "right-wing" philosophy. We in fact differ on many accounts with the right wing. And we cannot follow the extremes of right wing philosophy which tends to adopt authoritative of fascist governments. Hence, libertarianism cannot be extreme right.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I don't think the 2d metric is useful. But again, you guys agree with the right far more than you do with the left. Your own words.
    Just because you don't think a 2nd metric is necessary doesn't mean that it's not. You're trying to place people into preconceived boxes without allowing for proper identification of personal political philosophies or overall political platforms of a party.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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