View Poll Results: Gay marriage should be legal in America

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Thread: Gay marriage should be a constitutional right in America

  1. #101
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    Re: Gay marriage should be a constitutional right in America

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    But the homosexual union itself cannot be marriage because marriage is a union between a man and woman. You can't define apples as oranges because the apples want to be oranges.
    "But the black side of the resturant can't be the white side of the resturant, because the white side of the resturant is the white side of the resturant. You can't define apples as oranges because apples want to be oranges."

  2. #102
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    Re: Gay marriage should be a constitutional right in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    The problem is not that people are voting because of there religious beliefs, the problem is that the law banning SSM is based on religion. There is no reason besides religion to ban SSM. Logically there is no argument. Laws based on religion are illegal, and thats the fact.
    Why is that a problem though? And how do you know that? So then is someone's opinion more valid if it isn't based on their religious beliefs? What is someone votes against gay marriage because they are homophobic and hate gay people? What is someone votes for gay marriage because they hate Christians and just want to tick them off? There are other reasons to ban SSM aside from religion. Many believe that it shouldn't be called marriage because it's not the traditional (not religious) definition. What logical argument is there for redefining marriage and forcing secular morals upon an institution that has never been legally defined? The government can't nullify a vote or a stance simply because some hold their views because of their religion. The wording on Prop 8 never mentioned religion of any kind. It merely asked prople to define marriage, and their reasons behind defining it are not important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    "But the black side of the resturant can't be the white side of the resturant, because the white side of the resturant is the white side of the resturant. You can't define apples as oranges because apples want to be oranges."
    Huh? It's more like "the white man can't call himself a black man, because by definition he cannot be a black man."
    Last edited by digsbe; 08-06-10 at 03:51 PM.
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  3. #103
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    Re: Gay marriage should be a constitutional right in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Marriage in general isn't - why just focus on gay marriage?

    Unlike many other countries - ours does not govern marriage via the constitution within the federal government at all. It's a state-by-state basis, not a federal issue.

    The federal government has been granted no jurisdiction over our personal-relationships *at all* - who we're friends with, how we're related, who can marry, who can't - our government is strictly hands and opinions off of *any* "personal" issues what so ever in large part because of the first amendment which bars Congress from passing laws which favor or conflict with religion.

    Since marriage/gay marriage is strongly religious to many - if Congress passed a law which said "yes, allow it" then that would directly be in conflict and thus be governing religions and thus is actually unconstitutional.

    Unfortunately - it's a state by state issue . . . which sucks but that's the way the cookie crumbles.
    legal marriage has nothing to do with religion.

  4. #104
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    Re: Gay marriage should be a constitutional right in America

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Gay marriage is not a Constitutional right, nor should gay marriage ever be legalized. The homosexual union is not marriage nor can it properly fit the definition of the legal heterosexual one. If anything, civil unions identical to marriage would be acceptable.
    The marriage license is a contract, and the individual has right to contract. End of story.

    There is no non-theist, rational argument against same sex marriage.
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  5. #105
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    Re: Gay marriage should be a constitutional right in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The marriage license is a contract, and the individual has right to contract. End of story.
    An individual doesn't have the right to alter a state contract because he feels its not fair. He does have the right to the contract, but the contract's boundaries are between one man and one woman.
    There is no non-theist, rational argument against same sex marriage.
    The fact that marriage is a family institution and has been traditionally only offered to men and women is logical enough to not warp and redefine something to include another sexuality. And why just homosexuality, what about other sexualities? If someone has the right to redefine a legal contract, why can't a pansexual?
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    Re: Gay marriage should be a constitutional right in America

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    The fact that marriage is a family institution and has been traditionally only offered to men and women is logical enough to not warp and redefine something to include another sexuality. And why just homosexuality, what about other sexualities? If someone has the right to redefine a legal contract, why can't a pansexual?
    You can repeat this argument over and over but it doesn't change the fact that you have already been defeated on it multiple times now. You are just ignoring opposing arguments. In the other thread about the CA overturn on Prop 8 you used this same strategy.

    But please, by all means, keep reciting your defeated mantra.

  7. #107
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    Re: Gay marriage should be a constitutional right in America

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    An individual doesn't have the right to alter a state contract because he feels its not fair. He does have the right to the contract, but the contract's boundaries are between one man and one woman.
    Incorrect, it's a right. I have the right to contract. You seem very very confused on what a right is. You cannot dictate the terms of my contract. There is one restriction on my right to contract and that is that I may no infringe upon the rights of others in the exercise of my own rights. That's it. Thus the government issued and recognized contract CANNOT DISCRIMINATE along the basis of sexual orientation. That's the end all be all of the argument. Government issued and recognized contract cannot be used to discriminate against classes of Americans. No matter how much you don't like them.

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    The fact that marriage is a family institution and has been traditionally only offered to men and women is logical enough to not warp and redefine something to include another sexuality. And why just homosexuality, what about other sexualities? If someone has the right to redefine a legal contract, why can't a pansexual?
    How far back you want to go with this? Because it wasn't always monogamous. In fact, what we consider marriage has changed dramatically over the course of the years. In fact even the individual aspects of the particular traditions have changed. Ever wonder why the woman is given away at the wedding? It's because women were once considered property, and the giving away of the bride signified the property transfer of the woman from the father to the husband. But it doesn't mean that anymore.

    Traditions change, they always do. There is no infinity, nothing is infiintily static or stable. Not even this institution you call marriage.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  8. #108
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    Re: Gay marriage should be a constitutional right in America

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Huh? It's more like "the white man can't call himself a black man, because by definition he cannot be a black man."
    Your talking about a definition.

    "Marriage" is in the law, "Traditional Marriage" is now. One can't change the definition of traditional marriage unless one forges a new tradition. However, our laws are LAWS, not traditions, and are subject to rules that simple traditions are not.

    You present define "Marriage" as being the same as "traditional marriage" which is defined as "between a man and a woman".

    That's great.

    That doesn't mean that is any kind of legal defense.

    If I define "Side A" of my resturant as "The White side of the resturant" and "Side B" of my resturant as "The black side of the resturant" I can't go "What? You can't ask me to allow black people into side A! That'd force me to change the definition of what Side A is!"

    Having to change the definition of something is not a worth while legal defense.

    Simply because something WAS defined in one way does not mean that is any kind of legal or constitutional standing to violate constitutional protections.

    The definition of "equality" as it applied to Black people at one time was "Seperate but equal". That definition was changed because it was unconstitutional.

  9. #109
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    Re: Gay marriage should be a constitutional right in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    FindLaw | Cases and Codes

    Sure you have the right case? The word sex is not in that ruling, so you’ll have to point out the pertinent part.
    Did you read the actual opinions rather than just the case brief? From the court's unanimous opinion: "Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival"
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    Re: Gay marriage should be a constitutional right in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    You can repeat this argument over and over but it doesn't change the fact that you have already been defeated on it multiple times now. You are just ignoring opposing arguments. In the other thread about the CA overturn on Prop 8 you used this same strategy.

    But please, by all means, keep reciting your defeated mantra.
    I still hold my views, and no arguments I see can properly contradict them
    The only "victory" here comes at the price of denying citizens the right to vote on social issues. Didn't a federal judge in MA rule DOMA as unconstitutional because it violates a state's right to define marriage for that state? I am not ignoring opposing arguments, I am responding to them.

    Please don't try to bait me
    When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. -Socrates
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