View Poll Results: How convincing is the ignore Bush strategy?

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  • Very Convincing

    1 5.26%
  • Somewhat Convincing

    1 5.26%
  • Neither

    2 10.53%
  • Somewhat Unconvincing

    1 5.26%
  • Very Unconvincing

    14 73.68%
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Thread: How convincing is the ignore Bush strategy?

  1. #31
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    Re: How convincing is the ignore Bush strategy?

    I think the right approach is to think ask what has Obama done to rectify the problems Bush brought to us, and ask whether his solutions actually work towards fixing the issue, compound it, or bring a new set of possibly worse problems. You don't have to forgive or forget Bush to try and determine whether or not Obama is doing a good job.

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    Re: How convincing is the ignore Bush strategy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    how is he better in almost every way? he tripled the debt, gitmo is still open, wiretapps, fbi searches, taxes going up, still in a-stan (which is not going well, I am sad to say), iraq, etc. There is little policy wise different than the two and to state that we don't recognize your opinion as fact seems a little odd.
    I don't think you're open to being rational on the subject.

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    Re: How convincing is the ignore Bush strategy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Obama is significantly better, in almost every way, than Bush. However, there seems to be little recognition of this fact from most conservatives.
    That's because while that's true for you, its not for for everyone. You are not the declarer of how things "really are" for anyone other than your own view.

    I disliked Bush's breaking of campaign promises, specifically his statements concerning nation building. I dislike Obama's breaking of campaign promises, with a plethora to speak of with him. There are far more examples with Obama than Bush, but Bush's single major example is unquestionably major. However Bush had a beyond historic event that spurred his, Obama's had nothing that he didn't already have when making the promises.

    I dislike Bush's deficit spending and belief that we can just pass the debt onto future generations. However Obama' first year was greater than the two largest of Bush's. His projected out second year with that first year is more than Bush's entire Presidency.

    I disliked the government encroachment with No Child Left Behind and felt DHS's job could've been done through already present departments. At the same time you have Obama having government encroach with Cap & Trade, buying out companies, and the health care plan.

    I disliked Bush's stance on illegal immigration and pushing for a comprehensive plan. Obama has a similar stance, but on top of that is actively working to thwart states from tackling illegal immigration.

    I loved the choice of Roberts and Alito, I'm slightly negative on Kagan and Sotomoyer.

    While I disagreed with attempting to deny gay marriage constitutionally, I also disagree with having your secretary of state tour the world to attack one of your states as essentially racist and run an all out blitz against them for trying to stop illegal immigration because the Feds refuse to.

    I disagree with how Bush handled a lot of the PR and presentation of the wars, and I've disliked Obama's method of it as well.

    So far just about every way that I disliked Bush I dislike Obama equally, if not more. However, in the places I liked Bush...in Judges, on taxes, on confronting terrorism, etc...I generally dislike Bush. When I look at Obama, there's few if any things that he's done where I like him more than what Bush did.

    Someone who is equal or worse in all the things I disliked, worse in all the things I liked, and isn't better in any particular spot is not to me in any way shape or form "significantly better". This conservative doesn't acknowledge it, because for what's actually important to this conservative he's NOT significantly better.

  4. #34
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    Re: How convincing is the ignore Bush strategy?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Sure I will admit that. I don't see your point in bringing it up since our problems started before 2007. Heck some of our current problems happened under Clinton's watch or even before that.
    This is a point I disagree with. A president's power to address problems are often limited. If he were king, I would agree with you

    Now the OP...

    In various threads, whenever the mistakes of Bush are brought up, some people always seem to want to bury the past and act like it never happened so they can blame everything on Obama instead..
    OK...so if the presidents power is limited (I agree) then it isnt very realistic to BLAME Bush then ...so those that apparently do that (which again...I dont really see) shouldnt have a REASON to. And I also dont blame Obama for all the countries problems (my reason for pointing out that it is the legislative branch who writes legislation). I blame Obama for his lack of leadership. I blame him for whining about nothing being his fault. I blame him for the race baiting tactics. I blame him for HIS stuff...just like I blamed Bush for his.
    So, in your opinion, how effective is this strategy?

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    Re: How convincing is the ignore Bush strategy?

    Zyphlin, at least you're capable of enumerating what you don't like about Obama's policies. That's considerably more rationality than we usually get from the Obama haters.

    I hate that Bush embroiled us in a landwar in Asia. I hate that Bush dismantled constitutional protections, corporate accountability, and vested significantly more power in the executive branch. I hate that he mired us in more debt than we'd ever seen before.

    In general, while Obama has failed to deliver on some campaign promises, I think he is in a difficult position of not being able to make some of the changes he promised as quickly as he may have believed he'd be able to make them. I'm troubled by the areas where he potentially COULD have made changes, and hasn't, for reasons I don't entirely understand.

    However, he's not the person who embroiled us in two wars, simultaneously. Getting out of those wars is going to be significantly more complicated than it was to get us into them, it appears. On that measure, ALONE, he's better. He hasn't started any new wars.

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    Re: How convincing is the ignore Bush strategy?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    OK...so if the presidents power is limited (I agree) then it isnt very realistic to BLAME Bush then ...so those that apparently do that (which again...I dont really see) shouldnt have a REASON to. And I also dont blame Obama for all the countries problems (my reason for pointing out that it is the legislative branch who writes legislation). I blame Obama for his lack of leadership. I blame him for whining about nothing being his fault. I blame him for the race baiting tactics. I blame him for HIS stuff...just like I blamed Bush for his.
    So, in your opinion, how effective is this strategy?
    I think a president can muck things up more easily than they can fix it and their capacity for damage is greater than their capacity to fix things. Its the nature of the office I think.

    For example, lets look at Gitmo. Setting up the place was relatively easy, shutting the place down is proving to be very difficult. Its the same with the wars, wire taps etc. One of our problems with the way the government is currently set up is each time a new territory is opened up, it can be hard to close it back down again. This is one of the reasons why your leadership argument doesn't work for me.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 08-02-10 at 12:17 PM.

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    Re: How convincing is the ignore Bush strategy?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I think a president can muck things up more easily than they can fix it and their capacity for damage is greater than their capacity to fix things. Its the nature of the office I think.

    For example, lets look at Gitmo. Setting up the place was relatively easy, shutting the place down is proving to be very difficult. Its the same with the wars, wire taps etc. One of our problems with the way the government is currently set up is each time a new territory is opened up, it can be hard to close it back down again. This is one of the reasons why your leadership argument doesn't work for me.
    I remember that Bush wanted to shut down GITMO as well, but he realized it was just probably not going to happen. Obama probably realized the same thing, but he could campaign on that issue anyway and it was a major sticking point as we all saw. Smart move really, until it comes time to actually shut it down.

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    Re: How convincing is the ignore Bush strategy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Zyphlin, at least you're capable of enumerating what you don't like about Obama's policies. That's considerably more rationality than we usually get from the Obama haters.

    I hate that Bush embroiled us in a landwar in Asia. I hate that Bush dismantled constitutional protections, corporate accountability, and vested significantly more power in the executive branch. I hate that he mired us in more debt than we'd ever seen before.
    And this is exactly why I said that your statement concerning conservatives not admitting it is off base; its not that they don't admit it, its that they don't agree.

    I don't view Bush embroiling us in a land war in Asia as a negative. I don't even blame him for doing it initially, which was Afghanistan. While I think Iraq was horribly handled, I don't have an issue with its invasion in theory. These are not "negatives" to me. The negatives are how he went about it once there and the strategies employed both on the ground and in PR; but I have similar negatives in regards to Obama with these things.

    The only constitutional protections I can think of people saying he “dismantled” are actually, again, things I don’t have an issue with. This is undoubtably a far more nuanced topic (its what my senior thesis was about), but I feel at times in our country such is needed and we have the proper checks and balances in place to see it reversed in due time as we move away from the point its needed). For all the corporate accountability issues I have with him I have an equal amount of issues with Obama’s encroachment into business. The powers of the executive and growing it, that I will give you. However I would not put him “significantly” ahead of Obama on that simply because Obama is reinforcing them every step of the way.

    In general, while Obama has failed to deliver on some campaign promises, I think he is in a difficult position of not being able to make some of the changes he promised as quickly as he may have believed he'd be able to make them. I'm troubled by the areas where he potentially COULD have made changes, and hasn't, for reasons I don't entirely understand.
    And again, this is where we differ. You feel he’s in a difficult position to make them as quickly as he’d like. I view it, in regards to the economy, as something he had plenty of time to examine and see prior to things and while he was making his rhetorical statements. On the flip side I would say Bush’s main violation of campaign promises that were for naught happened due to an almost unparalleled event in our history. While people like to perhaps call the current state of the economy “historic”, even that cannot compare to the impact of 9/11 due to the gigantic and instantaneous nature of it compared to the extremely drawn out nature of this issue.

    However, he's not the person who embroiled us in two wars, simultaneously. Getting out of those wars is going to be significantly more complicated than it was to get us into them, it appears. On that measure, ALONE, he's better. He hasn't started any new wars.
    That is absolutely too, he did not get us into the war. And getting out is almost always more difficult. However, again, I do not see him “better” here. As I said, getting into the wars is not something I have an issue with…its how they’ve been carried out. And on that, Obama’s been no better than Bush, just different imho.

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    Re: How convincing is the ignore Bush strategy?

    Quote Originally Posted by NolaMan View Post
    I remember that Bush wanted to shut down GITMO as well, but he realized it was just probably not going to happen.
    I don't remember Bush wanting to do that, but if he did, than my opinion of him will go up.

    Quote Originally Posted by NolaMan View Post
    Obama probably realized the same thing, but he could campaign on that issue anyway and it was a major sticking point as we all saw. Smart move really, until it comes time to actually shut it down.
    My guess is that he did not realize how hard it would be until he won the election and start taking on the job.

  10. #40
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    Re: How convincing is the ignore Bush strategy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I have to agree that there are quite a few morons out there who believe that Obama can do no wrong. However, I also find that there are many in the Republican party who have completely different standards for Obama than they had for Bush.

    I am completely in favor of holding Obama accountable to deliver on campaign promises. So, for instance, the fact that GITMO still hasn't been closed, and we are still holding suspects without access to legal counsel, and may even be torturing people is EXTREMELY bothersome to me. As is the fact that we still don't have clear goals/objectives in A-stan or Iran, and no real exit plan.

    However, I don't really believe that Obama can be blamed in entirety for our massive debtload and economic woes. Those were already far advanced by the time he was elected, and could hardly be corrected in 18 months. In other words, we didn't get here overnight, and we aren't going to get things turned around overnight, either.

    Obama is significantly better, in almost every way, than Bush. However, there seems to be little recognition of this fact from most conservatives.
    I give Obama props for what he has done right...but the only thing I have seen him be 'right' on is his efforts in combating domestic terrorism. Of course Obama cant be blamed for the 14 trillion dollar debt...but he can be blamed for upping it 4 trillion in just 2 years (or, like Bush any budget deficits he authorizes). I dont know how we can consider an increase in unemployment and a stagnant economy as a success, nor the stagnant war effort a success. certainly the gulf oil debacle is a nightmare. Id be THRILLED and I mean that if his policies spelled economic success...and I will eat my words if they are successful. but you CANT spend your way out of a recession when you are just spending on social handout programs. and Im just not seeing the growth potential. I hope I am wrong.

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