View Poll Results: Individualism or Collectivism?

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  • Individualism

    33 76.74%
  • Collectivism

    10 23.26%
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Thread: Individualism or Collectivism?

  1. #71
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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by other View Post
    Oh. I was speaking of within a single band. Most of these societies didn't have a lot of interaction with other bands, and where they did it was usually peaceful--they exchanged wives, held potlatches, etc.

    Today it's different. Governments are already established worldwide.
    I still don't think it really matters though. Here is the way I see it:
    If a person does not like tribe a for some reason (perhaps the medicine man freaks out if people were purple beads or something). So he has two choices.
    1. Go live alone as Rivrrat described. (which we can still do today)
    2. Go to another tribe and live under a different set of rules.

    Whether its tribe a or tribe b, its still a government as there are rules enforced on a society. Emigration was easier back than, but where there are people there is a set of rules, a leader(s), and there is an enforcement mechanism for those rules. Thats basically what government is.

  2. #72
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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I still don't think it really matters though. Here is the way I see it:
    If a person does not like tribe a for some reason (perhaps the medicine man freaks out if people were purple beads or something). So he has two choices.
    1. Go live alone as Rivrrat described. (which we can still do today)
    2. Go to another tribe and live under a different set of rules.

    Whether its tribe a or tribe b, its still a government as there are rules enforced on a society. Emigration was easier back than, but where there are people there is a set of rules, a leader(s), and there is an enforcement mechanism for those rules. Thats basically what government is.
    There was no government or rules that they had to abide by (in a governmental sense). The primary enforcement mechanism, usually against obviously harmful things like incest and overt violence, etc, was a system of taboos... but anyone could violate them at any time, there was just an aversion to it because of their belief systems. Today we have governments which enforce laws, they had no such thing. Many problems were solved through either avoidance or normal social interactions, not the application of force.

    There were leaders, but not in the sense you are discussing. "Big man" societies and chiefdoms came later.
    Last edited by other; 08-02-10 at 02:34 PM.

  3. #73
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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by other View Post
    There was no government or rules that they had to abide by (in a governmental sense). The primary enforcement mechanism, usually against obviously harmful things like incest and overt violence, etc, was a system of taboos... but anyone could violate them at any time, there was just an aversion to it because of their belief systems. Today we have governments which enforce laws, they had no such thing. Many problems were solved through either avoidance or normal social interactions, not the application of force.

    There were leaders, but not in the sense you are discussing. "Big man" societies and chiefdoms came later.
    If you look at tribal societies today there can be severe physical consequences to violating taboo things (especially in the middle east). I would say it was stronger than collective aversion.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 08-02-10 at 02:43 PM.

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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    That's because of the cultural makeup of the population which is Russia. In a country where the individuals are capable of self-governing without declining into destructiveness (due to education, culture, values etc), personal freedom facilitates success and personal/societal growth. It all depends on the population one has to work with.
    This would be an example of what I am talking about. When communistic countries fail, they roll back government. This is superior, in my opinion, to an anarchistic society where it would devolve into a situation like somolia.

    Raul Castro Says State Will Reduce Economic Role - ABC News

  5. #75
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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    It depends on where you go. There are plenty of places where that would not happen, such as south america, india, or asia.
    Well if you're talking about OTHER countries, of course. I'm working toward that end now.

  6. #76
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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    If you look at tribal societies today there can be severe physical consequences to violating taboo things (especially in the middle east). I would say it was stronger than collective aversion.
    most of those societies today are heavily influenced by outside forces...in the case of your example, Islam, which formed in a more developed society. Before agriculture/cities, those influences and laws didn't exist. You can look to early studies of !kung bushmen, andaman islanders, or highlanders in new guinea for closer analogues. And aside from that, the "severe physical consequences" you percieve may not be perceived as such by their culture, many things we see as vile or torturous are not punishments to them at all (and certainly not government imposed).
    Last edited by other; 08-02-10 at 02:55 PM.

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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    If forced to choose one way or the other in establishing the primary foundation of a government, which one would you pick?
    I would like to chose individualism but it doesn't reflect what people really are. Let's face it, people are reactionaries, not planners or thinkers, so they really can't relate with their best interests, don't see things as they are, only what they want them to be.

    In short, the majority are gullible suckers that believe in guardian angels and hope, completely unprepared and too dependent to tackle individualism.

    A Steig cartoon showed a man's leg chained to a stake. He looked back and saw that the chain was parted... He cried out in anguish, "Oh, My God!!"

    Another one showed a man standing on his own giant hand saying. "Who am I to have an opinion of my own."

    That was back in the thirties and is a clear indication that man hasn't changed much since then.

    ricksfolly

  8. #78
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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by other View Post
    most of those societies today are heavily influenced by outside forces...in the case of your example, Islam, which formed in a more developed society. Before agriculture/cities, those influences and laws didn't exist. You can look to early studies of !kung bushmen, andaman islanders, or highlanders in new guinea for closer analogues. And aside from that, the "severe physical consequences" you percieve may not be perceived as such by their culture, many things we see as vile or torturous are not punishments to them at all (and certainly not government imposed).
    I don't see how outside influence is relevant. Also I don't really care what the culture perceives to be severe as I don't see that being relevant either. My point is that rules were made and enforced.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 08-02-10 at 03:24 PM.

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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I don't see how outside influence is relevent.
    Because outside influences alter societies. I was talking about how men lived before governments had developed.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Also I don't really care what the culture perceives to be severe. My point is that rules were made and enforced.
    And my point was that rules weren't made and enforced. These societies weren't big on rules and their leaders really didn't enforce anything on others. They had no government. When people lived in relatively small bands, living off the land, people generally get along pretty well with each other-- although populations remained small. Pointing to a tribal society in the modern middle east doesn't really tell you anything about tribal societies before government because they adhere to a system of religious law from another, stratified and sedentary society.
    Last edited by other; 08-02-10 at 03:35 PM.

  10. #80
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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Living freely would be great, but I think in such a condition, the hard accomplishment would be the living part. Most people would die.
    That statement is laughable! You mean human beings can't survive if left to their own devices?

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