View Poll Results: Individualism or Collectivism?

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  • Individualism

    33 76.74%
  • Collectivism

    10 23.26%
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Thread: Individualism or Collectivism?

  1. #21
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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    That's because of the cultural makeup of the population which is Russia. In a country where the individuals are capable of self-governing without declining into destructiveness (due to education, culture, values etc), personal freedom facilitates success and personal/societal growth. It all depends on the population one has to work with.
    Thats the same argument people make about communism (the marx kind, not the russian kind). All we need is better people.

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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    If forced to choose one way or the other in establishing the primary foundation of a government, which one would you pick?
    I think that picking one or the other is the wrong strategy in forming a government. You take what you need from both and don't worry about the label.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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  3. #23
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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    In general, I agree that individualism should be the primary thing as I think people are sovereign. But you do need some sort of mix or else you have a horrible situation at either end. Maybe I don't understand the point of the thread?
    The thread wanted to know which extreme you wanted. I think most people agree that to some degree there should be mixing of the two, but of the end points which one would you take sort of thing.

    IMO, individualism wins out every single time. While both extremes, complete socialism or complete anarchy, would in reality lead to bad things; the emphasis on the individual is philosophically greater. Thus in they hypothetical such as that which was proposed, I would endorse individualism over collectivism.

    It's sort of like what is your ideal government? If you didn't have to worry about human nature, or the reality of implementing certain bureaucracies, etc. what form of government would you choose? My pipe dream of a government is anarchy. If humans weren't humans and any system would perform exactly to theory, I'd push for anarchy; it's the ideal.
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  4. #24
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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Thats the same argument people make about communism (the marx kind, not the russian kind). All we need is better people.
    Yes, but individualism allows for success and growth, whereas a Marxist mindset seems to encourage status quo and blind obedience. Success and growth is the very basis for the evolution of every living thing that we know of.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Yes, but individualism allows for success and growth, whereas a Marxist mindset seems to encourage status quo and blind obedience. Success and growth is the very basis for the evolution of every living thing that we know of.
    Well that about sums up our discussion. Personally, I don't think people will ever be as moral as you think that they will. I don't think such a system could ever work. Like I said, better people, in the sense that they are better than they could ever possibly be given human nature.

  6. #26
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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    The problem with such a question is that human beings don't become individualist if you take away all collective entities. If you look the various societies in which people have the most individual freedoms, they also tend to have fairly powerful governments. Conversely, many societies without government devolve into highly repressive behavior at the individual or small group level. In reality, a collective choice to promote individualism is the best way to accomplish a free society.

  7. #27
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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Well that about sums up our discussion. Personally, I don't think people will ever be as moral as you think that they will. I don't think such a system could ever work. .
    I didn't say it would work, but the question is one of preference if forced to choose between the two. I would rather take my own chances and live freely.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    I didn't say it would work, but the question is one of preference if forced to choose between the two. I would rather take my own chances and live freely.
    I can only say that I hope you made the right choice.

  9. #29
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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The thread wanted to know which extreme you wanted. I think most people agree that to some degree there should be mixing of the two, but of the end points which one would you take sort of thing.

    IMO, individualism wins out every single time. While both extremes, complete socialism or complete anarchy, would in reality lead to bad things; the emphasis on the individual is philosophically greater. Thus in they hypothetical such as that which was proposed, I would endorse individualism over collectivism.

    It's sort of like what is your ideal government? If you didn't have to worry about human nature, or the reality of implementing certain bureaucracies, etc. what form of government would you choose? My pipe dream of a government is anarchy. If humans weren't humans and any system would perform exactly to theory, I'd push for anarchy; it's the ideal.
    Good post except for the anarchy part. ;-) Neither of these extremes would work, I agree. The upper 10% (guessing on the %) of our society right now operates on a kind of individualism. They are targets for envy, ridicule. "Tax 'em! Who cares about 'em? They should pay more."

    I'm afraid if we operated toooo closely to individualism, a whole lot of people would need food tasters.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The thread wanted to know which extreme you wanted. I think most people agree that to some degree there should be mixing of the two, but of the end points which one would you take sort of thing.

    IMO, individualism wins out every single time. While both extremes, complete socialism or complete anarchy, would in reality lead to bad things; the emphasis on the individual is philosophically greater. Thus in they hypothetical such as that which was proposed, I would endorse individualism over collectivism.

    It's sort of like what is your ideal government? If you didn't have to worry about human nature, or the reality of implementing certain bureaucracies, etc. what form of government would you choose? My pipe dream of a government is anarchy. If humans weren't humans and any system would perform exactly to theory, I'd push for anarchy; it's the ideal.
    I don't think it accomplishes that though. For example, I would make different choices depending on whatever the circumstances are, all with an eye to increasing freedom and having enough security to secure that freedom. So in an extreme I would go with socialism because having an oppressive monster of a government would be better than being dead or starving. While in a more civilized situation, I would probably go towards more individualism.

    Perhaps this is a question for less pragmatic people.

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