View Poll Results: Individualism or Collectivism?

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  • Individualism

    33 76.74%
  • Collectivism

    10 23.26%
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Thread: Individualism or Collectivism?

  1. #101
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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    It does, its just not as obvious. For example, look at the life expectancy rates in societies without a functioning government (we are discussing extremes here).
    remind me of the life expectancies of Jews in Nazi Germany, farmers in Stalinist Russian, dissidents in the "Great Leap Forward" and Armenians in Turkey. All of those nationals had governments that not only were functioning but were massive in their power.



  2. #102
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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    remind me of the life expectancies of Jews in Nazi Germany, farmers in Stalinist Russian, dissidents in the "Great Leap Forward" and Armenians in Turkey. All of those nationals had governments that not only were functioning but were massive in their power.
    Thats great and all, but it has nothing to do with my point that extreme individualism (anarchy) is very bad for one's health.

    Thats why you need a mix.

  3. #103
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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Thats great and all, but it has nothing to do with my point that extreme individualism (anarchy) is very bad for one's health.

    Thats why you need a mix.
    but we aren't talking about that. we are talking about too much government versus too much individualism. I am unaware of there ever being 100% government or 100% anarchy short of isolated small groups.

    But pure anarchy was not what caused 100 million deaths in the last 100 years. those deaths came almost completely from too much government.

    for a power to kill millions that takes collective action. even the nuttiest individual bent on mayhem cannot kill anywhere near the numbers that even moderately collectivist nation-states can.



  4. #104
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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    but we aren't talking about that. we are talking about too much government versus too much individualism. I am unaware of there ever being 100% government or 100% anarchy short of isolated small groups.
    I clarified earlier and it seems we are talking about extremes.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    But pure anarchy was not what caused 100 million deaths in the last 100 years. those deaths came almost completely from too much government.
    Thats why I pointed towards life expectancy in places like somolia. Since deaths are not officially recorded in an anarchy, its probably the only way we can get at the tragedy.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    for a power to kill millions that takes collective action. even the nuttiest individual bent on mayhem cannot kill anywhere near the numbers that even moderately collectivist nation-states can.
    Or mass malnutrition. Or gang warfare. Or unchecked disease. Or lots of things.

  5. #105
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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I clarified earlier and it seems we are talking about extremes.



    Thats why I pointed towards life expectancy in places like somolia. Since deaths are not officially recorded in an anarchy, its probably the only way we can get at the tragedy.



    Or mass malnutrition. Or gang warfare. Or unchecked disease. Or lots of things.
    a gang is a move away from anarchy. a gang is a form of government-albeit on a local level.



  6. #106
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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    a gang is a move away from anarchy. a gang is a form of government-albeit on a local level.
    I agree and thats another reason I don't think pure anarchy can work. Humans are wired to want some form of government, even if it means belonging to a gang. At the same time, we also want our freedoms. This goes back to my point that you need a mix.

  7. #107
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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I agree and thats another reason I don't think pure anarchy can work. Humans are wired to want some form of government, even if it means belonging to a gang. At the same time, we also want our freedoms. This goes back to my point that you need a mix.
    which I agree with fully but I believe the slippery slope to collectivism is far more a reality than towards anarchy

    given that we should guard more against genocidal collectivism-which has manifested itself in recent history vs. anarchy which really has not on more than a very small and isolated scale



  8. #108
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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    which I agree with fully but I believe the slippery slope to collectivism is far more a reality than towards anarchy

    given that we should guard more against genocidal collectivism-which has manifested itself in recent history vs. anarchy which really has not on more than a very small and isolated scale
    Well, I think one of the reasons countries with weak or might as well not be existing governments tend to have fewer deaths is because of lower life expectancy. Nobody is recording how many deaths for stupid reasons are happening. But I am quite positive it is in the high millions. The deaths are there, they are just less spectacular and publicized.

    But I agree that our government is starting to become fascistic in its collusion with rich at a freightening level.

  9. #109
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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Well, I think one of the reasons countries with weak or might as well not be existing governments tend to have fewer deaths is because of lower life expectancy. Nobody is recording how many deaths for stupid reasons are happening. But I am quite positive it is in the high millions. The deaths are there, they are just less spectacular and publicized.

    But I agree that our government is starting to become fascistic in its collusion with rich at a freightening level.
    It has always been that way but now we have the government colluding with the rich who are rich because of the government



  10. #110
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    Re: Individualism or Collectivism?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    It has always been that way but now we have the government colluding with the rich who are rich because of the government
    And its never been a good thing, now its worse.

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