• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Have you ever lost out on a job due to illegal immigrants?

Have you ever lost out on a job due to illegal immigrants?

  • Yes I have, explain please

    Votes: 2 6.1%
  • No I haven't

    Votes: 25 75.8%
  • No I haven't but I have seen others lose their jobs because of illegal immigrants

    Votes: 2 6.1%
  • other

    Votes: 4 12.1%

  • Total voters
    33
The "Price of Tomatoes will skyrocket" is a favorite argument of pro-illegals next to lies of racism, xenophobia or anti-immigration.

The Seattle Times: Local News: Low-paid illegal work force has little impact on prices
2003257249.gif


More than 7 million illegal immigrants work in the United States. They build houses, pick crops, slaughter cattle, stitch clothes, mow lawns, clean hotel rooms, cook restaurant meals and wash the dishes that come back.

You might assume that the plentiful supply of low-wage illegal workers would translate into significantly lower prices for the goods and services they produce. In fact, their impact on consumer prices — call it the "illegal-worker discount" — is surprisingly small.

The bag of Washington state apples you bought last weekend? Probably a few cents cheaper than it otherwise would have been, economists estimate. That steak dinner at a downtown restaurant? Maybe a buck off. Your new house in Subdivision Estates? Hard to say, but perhaps a few thousand dollars less expensive.

The underlying reason, economists say, is that for most goods the labor — whether legal or illegal, native- or foreign-born — represents only a sliver of the retail price.

Consider those apples — Washington's signature contribution to the American food basket.

At a local QFC, Red Delicious apples go for about 99 cents a pound. Of that, only about 7 cents represents the cost of labor, said Tom Schotzko, a recently retired extension economist at Washington State University. The rest represents the grower's other expenses, warehousing and shipping fees, and the retailer's markup.

And that's for one of the most labor-intensive crops in the state: It takes 150 to 190 hours of labor to grow and harvest an acre of apples, Schotzko said, compared to four hours for an acre of potatoes and 1 ½ hours for an acre of wheat.

If you had bothered to actually read the rest of his post you'd have seen it has more to do with the feeling of entitlement American workers have in regards to jobs. Harry Guerilla said it best, he wants to be paid more to kill chickens. Why? What makes killing chickens for 12 hours worth more than $10 an hour? What makes it worth more than $5 an hour? If I want to pay less for unskilled labor why shouldn't I? Instead of competition you have a market of entitlement. You believe you should be paid more for your services than a worker doing the same job in Pakistan. Illegal immigrants keep everybody else competitive in their prices. Instead of having workers engage in cartel-like practices they keep their prices in competititon.
 
If you had bothered to actually read the rest of his post you'd have seen it has more to do with the feeling of entitlement American workers have in regards to jobs.

His post was still using the if we don't have illegals picking our veggies then prices will skyrocket argument.

Harry Guerilla said it best, he wants to be paid more to kill chickens. Why? What makes killing chickens for 12 hours worth more than $10 an hour?What makes it worth more than $5 an hour?

Have you ever killed chickens in a factory before? How do you know its not worth more than $10 dollars an hour? A college degree doesn't mean you should be paid the big bucks either,especially if the labor market is flooded with workers with a certain college degree.

If I want to pay less for unskilled labor why shouldn't I?

Unskilled does not equal easy work. PLus you should be able to dictate what ever wages you want(assuming it doesn't go below minimum wage) as long as you can get legal American workers to work for those wages. However if you can't get legal workers to work for those wages , then you need to up the pay until they do.Supply and demand works both ways. If the demand for labor exceeds the labor available then wages shall go up regardless if it just standing on a corner with a sign, picking vegetables, construction(which is not unskilled labor), maid, artist(now days does not require actual talent), teacher, doctor, garbageman or what ever else.

Instead of competition you have a market of entitlement. You believe you should be paid more for your services than a worker doing the same job in Pakistan.
I am sure the second your job can be outsourced or they can find an illegal to do it you might change your tune.

Illegal immigrants keep everybody else competitive in their prices.

So if factories wanted to use slave labor it would be slaves keeps everybody else competitive?

Instead of having workers engage in cartel-like practices they keep their prices in competititon.

You are comparing workers wanting a decent job for the work they do and employers punished for hiring illegals to crime organization?
 
Yes. Technically we have all lost out on jobs due to illegal immigrants. Illegals prevent job growth and prevent people from hiring Americans when they could hire illegals who can be abused by the employer with no backlash.
 
His post was still using the if we don't have illegals picking our veggies then prices will skyrocket argument.

And it would because there would not be a competing workforce.

Have you ever killed chickens in a factory before? How do you know its not worth more than $10 dollars an hour? A college degree doesn't mean you should be paid the big bucks either,especially if the labor market is flooded with workers with a certain college degree.

Unskilled does not equal easy work. PLus you should be able to dictate what ever wages you want(assuming it doesn't go below minimum wage) as long as you can get legal American workers to work for those wages. However if you can't get legal workers to work for those wages , then you need to up the pay until they do.Supply and demand works both ways. If the demand for labor exceeds the labor available then wages shall go up regardless if it just standing on a corner with a sign, picking vegetables, construction(which is not unskilled labor), maid, artist(now days does not require actual talent), teacher, doctor, garbageman or what ever else.

That is so ridiculous it's not even funny. The reason college degrees are in high demand are because of how FEW people actually have degrees. If 70% of our workforce had degrees then you'd have a point. However there are very few economies where a sizeable percentage of the population has high education levels and thus why their jobs are highly paid. As opposed to killing chickens. Which you know, is not something you need to study or invest time and money into. The argumen which has been made here is that legal or illegal, there will still be millions of people willing to do your job for cheaper. What happens when legal immigrants start taking your jobs because they're willing to pay for less? Will you suggest kicking the legal ones out? What happens when people in India are given factory jobs because they're willing to work for less? Will you suggest protectionist policy?

I am sure the second your job can be outsourced or they can find an illegal to do it you might change your tune.

Well my job could be outsourced to South Korea I guess. But I'm not too worried about it.

So if factories wanted to use slave labor it would be slaves keeps everybody else competitive?

That is a strawman. Slavery is INVOLUNTARY labor. As opposed to what we're talking about. Which is. You know. People entering into consensual agreements to work for less.

You are comparing workers wanting a decent job for the work they do and employers punished for hiring illegals to crime organization?

No. I am discussing the feeling of entitlement Americans have to better jobs. Nobody should be paid $15 an hour simply because they think their hard work is worht a lot. Cheap labor is cheap labor. If you can get somebody to VOLUNTARILY do it for less, why the hell not?
 
How much do you expect to get paid for a job where you require no training and a person with a 5th grade education could do efficiently? This is what kills me about the argument that immigrants are taking your jobs. If we didn't have illegal immigrants and you lost your job to some 16 year old would you then argue we should kick them all out? If you lost it to ghetto rat from Brooklyn would you say we need to kick the poor out? There will always be somebody willing to do things cheaper than you. And if they won't do it? Somebody else will. It's one of the downsides of the free market. Unless your job requires education, skill etc, somebody else will do it for far less money than you will.

Yea it doesn't require much education, I never said it did but then again there is a localized minimum wage which is usually above the national minimum wage for doing these type of things.
This is unpleasant work.

These people are allowed to ignore zoning laws, vehicle insurance laws and many other things that would naturally keep these wages above what they are paying now.

You have problems man, I wouldn't bitch if a legal resident wanted to do the work for less.
Unfortunately for you, the "market" (it's not free by any means) has legal boundaries we are all supposed to live in, including residency.
When you allow some of these people to ignore it and many other things, it gives them an unfair advantage.
 
Last edited:
Hatuey pretty much hit upon it. Welcome to the wild, wild world of capitalism. It's free market, where the survival is still of the fittest.

This is what happens when America thinks they're entitled to everything, including jobs. But instead of becoming more competitive, we just bitch. It's Japan in the late 80s all over again. America doesn't want to get leaner and meaner, so they brainwash people into hyper-protectionism and villify people for buying something cheaper and better because it's produced overseas.

Personally, I welcome it to an extent. Instead of having some lazy piece of crap whine about how he can do the most basic of jobs for minimum wage, Hector will do it for half the price, with a huge grin on his face, and the respect of saying "si, senor". Sorry, I don't have a tilde on this keyboard.

Hector embraces the system, so why can't we?

That's not true at all.

I have no problems with the Chinese doing jobs more efficiently.
They don't move to our country illegally and break laws to work (for the most part).
They produce it with in the legal bounds of their countries.

When someone moves into my country and gets to ignore the laws, I'm supposed to follow.
When employers are also allowed to ignore the law on many levels.
Then I have problems.

They have an unfair advantage that I don't.
So no, it's not that simple.
 
I mostly worry about illegal immigrants being victimized.
Often, they are the victims of crimes, and are afraid to report this because they fear being deported.
I also don't like to see them taken advantage of by employers.
It makes me sad to see them living a dozen to an apartment, and doing their laundry so carefully- four or five different laundry products, all of them from Mexico and smelling like heaven.
It breaks my heart to see them standing together on the street corner early in the morning, while it's still dark outside, dressed so nicely in their button-down shirts and pressed pants, waiting for a truck to come by and take them to their construction jobs.

They try so hard.
They deserve better treatment than they get.
 
I mostly worry about illegal immigrants being victimized.
Often, they are the victims of crimes, and are afraid to report this because they fear being deported.
I also don't like to see them taken advantage of by employers.
It makes me sad to see them living a dozen to an apartment, and doing their laundry so carefully- four or five different laundry products, all of them from Mexico and smelling like heaven.
It breaks my heart to see them standing together on the street corner early in the morning, while it's still dark outside, dressed so nicely in their button-down shirts and pressed pants, waiting for a truck to come by and take them to their construction jobs.

They try so hard.
They deserve better treatment than they get.

I have compassion for those that want to live here permanently and wouldn't mind an amnesty for them.

My problem stems from people those that like to paint me as some sort of bigoted ass because I'm calling foul on the fact that illegal aliens aren't required to follow the law, I'm supposed to follow.

How the hell can I compete with that?
 
Last edited:
If you had bothered to actually read the rest of his post you'd have seen it has more to do with the feeling of entitlement American workers have in regards to jobs. Harry Guerilla said it best, he wants to be paid more to kill chickens. Why? What makes killing chickens for 12 hours worth more than $10 an hour? What makes it worth more than $5 an hour? If I want to pay less for unskilled labor why shouldn't I? Instead of competition you have a market of entitlement. You believe you should be paid more for your services than a worker doing the same job in Pakistan. Illegal immigrants keep everybody else competitive in their prices. Instead of having workers engage in cartel-like practices they keep their prices in competititon.

No it's not entitlement.
There are requirements here, that some people don't have to follow, because of lax enforcement by state and federal officials.
You've totally mischaracterized my words.

The labor market isn't a "free" market.
There are legal requirements that both the individual and the business are supposed to follow.
When you allow one group to ignore those rules, it creates a two tiered system.
The person that is allowed to ignore those standards will have an inherent advantage over the person who isn't.

You don't know what you're talking about.
You seem to only want to troll and insult me (and others).
 
No it's not entitlement.
There are requirements here, that some people don't have to follow, because of lax enforcement by state and federal officials.
You've totally mischaracterized my words.

The labor market isn't a "free" market.
There are legal requirements that both the individual and the business are supposed to follow.
When you allow one group to ignore those rules, it creates a two tiered system.
The person that is allowed to ignore those standards will have an inherent advantage over the person who isn't.

You don't know what you're talking about.
You seem to only want to troll and insult me (and others).


Well, that's the thing; illegal immigrants work under the table, usually for cash.
Therefore, taxes are not deducted from their wages.
So they can afford to work for less than people who do pay taxes (although they still, in my opinion, suffer; even without being made to pay taxes, the wages they receive are not enough to support a decent quality of life).

It seems to me the answer is amnesty for all who are now here, allow then to work legally as guest workers or something, force employers to pay them a living wage, and then deduct taxes from it.
Everyone wins.
 
Well, that's the thing; illegal immigrants work under the table, usually for cash.
Therefore, taxes are not deducted from their wages.
So they can afford to work for less than people who do pay taxes (although they still, in my opinion, suffer; even without being made to pay taxes, the wages they receive are not enough to support a decent quality of life).

It seems to me the answer is amnesty for all who are now here, allow then to work legally as guest workers or something, force employers to pay them a living wage, and then deduct taxes from it.
Everyone wins.

They aren't suffering, not living totally by American standards but definitely not suffering.
The boarding houses are relatively well maintained.
A lot of the guys I know do pretty well.

If you make employers follow the wage laws, illegal labor will not be used.
Most of these guys here don't pay overtime to their illegal laborers, that's a huge advantage over someone like me.
 
Not that I'm aware of.

But how would I know, one way or the other?
 
Well, that's the thing; illegal immigrants work under the table, usually for cash.
Therefore, taxes are not deducted from their wages.
So they can afford to work for less than people who do pay taxes (although they still, in my opinion, suffer; even without being made to pay taxes, the wages they receive are not enough to support a decent quality of life).

It seems to me the answer is amnesty for all who are now here, allow then to work legally as guest workers or something, force employers to pay them a living wage, and then deduct taxes from it.
Everyone wins.

The better answer is fines and jail time for the employers of the invaders. It doesn't matter if they sufer, they weren't invited in the first place, and the less they like it here, the more incentive they have to LEAVE.

There's an idea you can focus on, instead of the looney idea of encouraging more law breaking by forgiving law breaking.
 
I have had to turn down some opportunities because the specific job sectors didn't pay enough, largely because they were populated by illegal immigrants.

12 hour days, making approximately minimum wage, isn't good pay for eviscerating chickens.

Nobody complains when they get their chickens cheap, their fruit cheap, their California wine cheap, their cars washed cheap or 100 things that we get cheap because businesses keep their labor costs low...

AZ eats their share of burgers made with meat from Texas and produce picked in CA...
 
Nobody complains when they get their chickens cheap, their fruit cheap, their California wine cheap, their cars washed cheap or 100 things that we get cheap because businesses keep their labor costs low...

AZ eats their share of burgers made with meat from Texas and produce picked in CA...

We have to figure out what we want to do here.

Either we can make sure everyone, both illegal and legal, is required to follow the law.
Like, paying into Social Security and Medicare, over time laws, OSHA, minimum wage, the new health insurance mandate, occupancy restrictions, etc.

Or we can keep this two tiered system where low skilled legal labor(aka low income/poor people) is at an inherent disadvantage because they have to follow the law.
 
Back
Top Bottom