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Are African-Americans a mongrel people?

Are African-Americans a mongrel people?


  • Total voters
    33
Except in this case, as -none- of that matters.

Who said it doesnt matter. Disagree? Why?
Why it was said doesnt matter. Disagree? Why?
Where it was said doesn't matter Disagree? Why?
That anyone said it at all -- doesn't matter.

All -you- want to do here is -avoid- the question.

Yes, in this case context does matter. Does it mean "mongrel" as in dog, or does it mean "mongrel" as in mixed ancestry. That is a pretty significant difference, and without knowing, we cannot properly judge.
 
Dude. There's no way you didn't understand my point.

Your "point" is a red herring if it does not provide evidence in favor of your affirmitive response to my previous question about Obama being to blame for other people freaking out over certain words being used.

I understand your "point" but I reject it because it patently ignores the one I was making when I first posed the question.
 
Yes, in this case context does matter. Does it mean "mongrel" as in dog, or does it mean "mongrel" as in mixed ancestry.
I suggest you visit post #5 where the specific meaning of the term was clarified, as requested by someone else.

So, back to...

Who said it doesnt matter. Disagree? Why?
Why it was said doesnt matter. Disagree? Why?
Where it was said doesn't matter Disagree? Why?
That anyone said it at all -- doesn't matter.

All -you- want to do here is -avoid- the question.
 
Thus, context doesnt matter.
Context does matter. It is the framework upon which interpretation is based.

To posit otherwise is disingenuous and dishonest.
 
I suggest you visit post #5 where the specific meaning of the term was clarified, as requested by someone else.

So, back to...

Who said it doesnt matter. Disagree? Why?
Why it was said doesnt matter. Disagree? Why?
Where it was said doesn't matter Disagree? Why?
That anyone said it at all -- doesn't matter.

All -you- want to do here is -avoid- the question.

So you stop with the madness...

Who said it does not matter in this case.
Why it was said does matter, it's context. What is the person trying to say.
Where it was said in this case did not matter. It may in other cases.
That any one said it at all does matter, since without some one saying it, you would never have made this thread to try and trap people.

All -you- want to do here is try and -trap- people so -you- can say -gotcha-. If it was not the case, you would have supplied the context. I repeat, you cannot judge any comment properly without the context.
 
Context does matter. It is the framework upon which interpretation is based.
To posit otherwise is disingenuous and dishonest.
Who said it doesn't matter. Disagree? Why?
Why it was said doesnt matter. Disagree? Why?
Where it was said doesn't matter. Disagree? Why?

That anyone said it at all -- doesn't matter.
Disagree? Would your answer to the question change depending any of the above things?
 
But you're doing the same thing. Lott says that's not what he meant. There's nothing comparable in Lott's repertoire to support that the segrationist platform is what he meant. They glommed onto a sentence, assumed he meant something, and that became the narrative. The context says he should get the benefit of the doubt, exactly as the context says Harry Reid should get the benefit of the doubt for his "light-skinned negro" comments, or Clinton and his "bringing us coffee" comment.

The Dixiecrats had 8 planks to their platform (not counting the 9th which simply stated who they endorse).

Of those 8 planks two dealt DIRECTLY with segregation by name saying it should be in place.

Of the other 6 are reasonable to assume, based on the Dixiecrat's legislative goals and their comments on the campaign trail and prior to the campaign, dealt greatly with their views in regards to segregation and their belief that it was harmful to human rights and a danger to the country.

The entire platform of the Dixiecrats was pretty much rooted in the notion that segregtation was needed and the government should not have the power to tell the states they must stop segregation.

Trent Lott choose to make a generalized, BROAD statement, on his own accord that endorsed Strom Thurmonds run during that time stating that if he had won the country wouldn't have the problems we face now.

Strom Thurmonds parties platforms spefically was for segregation and was broadly focused almost singularly on it. Whether or not Trent Lott was speaking specifically about segregation, he choose to speak broadly about Strom Thurmond and broadly would HAVE to include the segregationist views becuase that was the CORE of Strom Thurmonds presidential run. This would be like suggesting that if someone said we'd have been better off with Republicans in power that they aren't actually endorsing limited government. Segregationism was the core of the Dixiecrat philosophy and their motivating factor in wanting more powerful state rights.

This is a case of Trent Lott endorsing someone whose history during the time period Lott was referencing was unquestionably known as being focused around segregationism. It is incumbant about Trent, if he doesn't want the OBVIOUS and reasonable context to be what is considered, to clarify his comments.

If Strom Thurmand had won the Presidency the main focus of said presidency would've been the strengthening of states rights to assure that segregation continued. This was the entire point of the Dixiecrats. One can not possibly say we would be better off had they won without clarifying that they're not speaking about segregationism and expect people to believe you mean anything other than that. That was their BIGGEST singular issue and influenced their ENTIRE platform, its completely reasonable to assume if you're supporting said platform then you're supporting the core thing motivating it.
 
So you stop with the madness...
Why it was said does matter, it's context.
Really?
Knowing this, how does your answer change?

What is the person trying to say.
This was clarified. Sorry that you werent paying attention, but that's on you.

That any one said it at all does matter...
Knowing that someone did or did not say it, how does your answer change?

All -you- want to do here is...
... avoid the question.
All you ARE doing is embarassing yourself.
 
The Dixiecrats had 8 planks to their platform (not counting the 9th which simply stated who they endorse).

Of those 8 planks two dealt DIRECTLY with segregation by name saying it should be in place.

Of the other 6 are reasonable to assume, based on the Dixiecrat's legislative goals and their comments on the campaign trail and prior to the campaign, dealt greatly with their views in regards to segregation and their belief that it was harmful to human rights and a danger to the country.

The entire platform of the Dixiecrats was pretty much rooted in the notion that segregtation was needed and the government should not have the power to tell the states they must stop segregation.

Trent Lott choose to make a generalized, BROAD statement, on his own accord that endorsed Strom Thurmonds run during that time stating that if he had won the country wouldn't have the problems we face now.

Strom Thurmonds parties platforms spefically was for segregation and was broadly focused almost singularly on it. Whether or not Trent Lott was speaking specifically about segregation, he choose to speak broadly about Strom Thurmond and broadly would HAVE to include the segregationist views becuase that was the CORE of Strom Thurmonds presidential run. This would be like suggesting that if someone said we'd have been better off with Republicans in power that they aren't actually endorsing limited government. Segregationism was the core of the Dixiecrat philosophy and their motivating factor in wanting more powerful state rights.

This is a case of Trent Lott endorsing someone whose history during the time period Lott was referencing was unquestionably known as being focused around segregationism. It is incumbant about Trent, if he doesn't want the OBVIOUS and reasonable context to be what is considered, to clarify his comments.

If Strom Thurmand had won the Presidency the main focus of said presidency would've been the strengthening of states rights to assure that segregation continued. This was the entire point of the Dixiecrats. One can not possibly say we would be better off had they won without clarifying that they're not speaking about segregationism and expect people to believe you mean anything other than that. That was their BIGGEST singular issue and influenced their ENTIRE platform, its completely reasonable to assume if you're supporting said platform then you're supporting the core thing motivating it.

You're just repeating the same thing you said in the last post. My answer, therefore, is the same.

I don't disagree with you about Thurmond. It's not about Thurmond.
 
You're just repeating the same thing you said in the last post. My answer, therefore, is the same.

I don't disagree with you about Thurmond. It's not about Thurmond.

Could someone have voted for Thurmond and not been supporting segregation, given Thurmond's platform at the time?
 
Great.
And how would -any- of that have changed your response to my question?

Well lets see...

If you had stated:

If your purpose is what it CLEARLY was, which was being spurred by Obama's comment and referencing his comment, you could've gone.

I would probably have responded by stating that in theory I agree with him. The whole notion of "African" American is a bit questionable now, as while historically one could trace linieage there many black people could perhaps claim more European or Carribean blood perhaps than pure "african" blood. Blacks, as well as many whites, could easily be considered "mongrels" in that fashion at this point as the ethnic lineage has became so mixed within the various races and that it'll likely continue to be that way. With the easier its became to travel across the world now it will continually be harder to find "french" people or "african" people or "English" people who are 100% or even 75% of a particular ethnic bloodline.

That said it's another example of poor judgement on his part using that particular word. While technically it may fit, the word has a definitive negative connotation in the normal and typical usage of it and is just going to invite a potential firestorm. This is akin to suggesting that someone is "queer" because they are odd, while it may technically be true the term is far more often used in modern times as an insult or derogatory way of referencing someone as a homosexual and as such would likely not be the wisest word to use regardless of its technical correctness.

Now, if you ahd stated this

If your purpose was HONESTLY not trying to set a trap and were meaning this in an entirely generalized way you could've gone

I'd likely state that its multifaceted and would depend on how or why someone was using it. In a very generalized way I'd say its likely meant to be insulting, as the common use and reference to mongrel in most speech today is referencing to rabid dogs or mangy dogs. Thus its either refering to black individuals as savages or something less than human. That said, if using it in its more literal, technical definition it could be something that is considered accurate due to the natural mixed ethnicity that is common today...however if someone was using it only to describe blacks I'd suggest an alterior motive to them since most races at this point in humanity could be considered "mongrels" to a point under that definition.
 
Disagree? Would your answer to the question change depending any of the above things?
Context is one of the reasons why we allow a grace-period for editing posts... to clarify context. To pretend that context is a frivolous concept without utility and purpose is, once again... a disingenuous and dishonest position.
 
Context is one of the reasons why we allow a grace-period for editing posts... to clarify context. To pretend that context is a frivolous concept without utility and purpose is, once again... a disingenuous and dishonest position.
You did not answer the question(s).
 
Could someone have voted for Thurmond and not been supporting segregation, given Thurmond's platform at the time?

Sure. Someone could have voted for Thurmond for any reason under the sun, just as they could have done so for any candidate who ever ran for anything.

Was Lott in the habit of making pro-segregationist comments? Did he support pro-segregationist legislation?
 
You're just repeating the same thing you said in the last post. My answer, therefore, is the same.

I don't disagree with you about Thurmond. It's not about Thurmond.

But it is about Thurmond. Its DIRECTLY about Thurmond. Its about Lott saying the country would've been better off if it had elected Thurmond.

To suggest that is to suggest the country would've been better off if Thurmond had been able to push his agenda, as it'd make no sense to want Thurmond in but NOT to have his agenda occur as that'd be no different than him not making it into the Presidency.

To suggest that the country would've been better off with Thurmonds agenda is to suggest that the country would've been better off with Segregationism because that was the CORE of Thurmonds platform.

That was the entire main focus for their Platform and their legislation, if that's not what you actually mean to speak about when talking about Dixiecrats then its incumbant on you to clarify because its absolutely reasonable to assume that without clarification you're talking about them as a whole.
 
Really?
Knowing this, how does your answer change?

I still have not answered your poll question, because I still do not know the whole context.


This was clarified. Sorry that you werent paying attention, but that's on you.

No it has not. What was the question he was answering? What was his overall point with the comment? Without knowing things like that, it is impossible to judge.


Knowing that someone did or did not say it, how does your answer change?

See above. I still have not answered the poll.


... avoid the question.
All you ARE doing is embarassing yourself.

Hey look, a comment out of context. Some one is embarrassing themselves here, but it is not me.
 
Sure. Someone could have voted for Thurmond for any reason under the sun, just as they could have done so for any candidate who ever ran for anything.

Was Lott in the habit of making pro-segregationist comments? Did he support pro-segregationist legislation?

Except Strom Thurmonds platform and purpose at that point was almost singularly surrounding the issue of Segregation.

If you state your position of support for an individual whose entire platform is based off the belief that all drugs should be legalized, and it states it bluntly in two of its platform statements, every other platform statement directly relates to it, and all your legislative pushes have primarily been based around legalizing drugs...and you do not specifically state you support him for the reasons other than his views on drugs...its absolutely reasonable to assume that you support his views on drugs because that's the main, primarily, core focus of that individual.

Strom Thurmonds run for the Presidency in 1948 under the Dixiecrats was directly and nearly singularly predicated off the notion that segregation should continue and as such state rights need to be strenghtened to assure it. Unless someone actually clarifies why they're saying Strom Thurmond winning would've been better for America, its reasonable to assume no matter who the person is that they're in part speaking about Segregation since that was the MAIN thing Thurmond was advocating for and the individual spoke in a broad way which implies a broad support.

If there are additional comments from Lott that I've not found in searching on this where he immedietely before or after states how Thurmands views on Segregation and his motivation for his states rights views was wrong, but ultimately his states rights views were correct and we would've overturned segregation shortly after anyways, then I'd agree 100% with you. To my knowledge I've found nothing further from the context to suggest that's there. And while I don't know a great deal of Lotts history (the fact he hasn't push for segregation is irrelevant as he's hardly been heavily politically active during the time period where that was actually common) there is nothing about him that is so obviously counter to make me assume him making a gigantically broad statement about a man whose platform was singularly inspired by Segregationism somehow wasn't speaking broadly.

Do I think that means Trent Lott directly, specifically, is in favor of segregationism? No. What I do think it means is that Trent Lott thinks this country would've been better off with a party in power whose goal was to cause segregation to continue, and that in and of itself is unquestionably wrong and sad. If that was not his intention then he shouldn't have given such broad and open support to a guy whose platform was focused on such.
 
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Except Strom Thurmonds platform and purpose at that point was almost singularly surrounding the issue of Segregation.

If you state your position of support for an individual whose entire platform is based off the belief that all drugs should be legalized, and it states it bluntly in two of its platform statements, every other platform statement directly relates to it, and all your legislative pushes have primarily been based around legalizing drugs...and you do not specifically state you support him for the reasons other than his views on drugs...its absolutely reasonable to assume that you support his views on drugs because that's the main, primarily, core focus of that individual.

Strom Thurmonds run for the Presidency in 1948 under the Dixiecrats was directly and nearly singularly predicated off the notion that segregation should continue and as such state rights need to be strenghtened to assure it. Unless someone actually clarifies why they're saying Strom Thurmond winning would've been better for America, its reasonable to assume no matter who the person is that they're in part speaking about Segregation since that was the MAIN thing Thurmond was advocating for and the individual spoke in a broad way which implies a broad support.

Are you going to just keep repeating this as though I didn't respond to it the first time?
 
Sure. Someone could have voted for Thurmond for any reason under the sun, just as they could have done so for any candidate who ever ran for anything.

I wasn't asking for their reasoning behind their vote.

I'm was asking about the results of their vote.

Someone could not vote for Obama, for xample, without giving their support to his agenda as well. It's not possible.


Was Lott in the habit of making pro-segregationist comments? Did he support pro-segregationist legislation?

Trent Lott's Segregationist College Days - TIME

Supposedly from lott's own mouth:

Yes, you could say I favored segregation then. I don't now. The main thing was, I felt the federal government had no business sending in troops to tell the state what to do.

Now, regardless of how one feels about his reasoning, the comment was deservedly criticized, given his history. It is not at all comparable to the use of the term niggardly, or mongrel in this context, or even Reid's use of the term "negro dialect"
 
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Except you didn't respond to it. All you said is "i'm doing the same thing I'm suggesting people are doing elsewhere" and I've responded over and over again how no, I'm not, that its a completely different situation.

you then keep going "I agree with you" which makes no sense because you earlier stated that you disagreed with me.

I'm still waiting for you to actually explain how what I'm doing is the same, since I've shown repeatedly why it isn't. Or at the very least for you to explain to me why you think my reasoning I've stated is incorrect.

You've done neither.
 
Except you didn't respond to it. All you said is "i'm doing the same thing I'm suggesting people are doing elsewhere" and I've responded over and over again how no, I'm not, that its a completely different situation.

you then keep going "I agree with you" which makes no sense because you earlier stated that you disagreed with me.

I'm still waiting for you to actually explain how what I'm doing is the same, since I've shown repeatedly why it isn't. Or at the very least for you to explain to me why you think my reasoning I've stated is incorrect.

You've done neither.

No, I said more than that. It's unlike you to simply ignore someone's posts like this.

But no matter; I'm not going to repeat it, because I already responded. Pretend I didn't if you like, but this is going nowhere.
 
Okay, since you're accusing me of ignoring your points I'll go line by line.

But you're doing the same thing.

No, I'm not. See my multiple posts that you've continually simply disregarded as saying "I'm saying the same things" without actually countering them that shows that what I'm doing with Lott is entirely different.

Lott says that's not what he meant.

That may be the case, but there was zero context prior to his statement for someone to believe that was the case. He made a broad statement in support of a man whose presidency was focused on segregationism.

Even after this statement, its still a coin flip whether or not someone believes him because:

1) He's admitted supporting segregation in the past
2) He didn't clarify exactly what it is then about a man whose primary goal was segregationism that he thought would've caused America's problems not to be prsent today.

There's nothing comparable in Lott's repertoire to support that the segrationist platform is what he meant.

First, as I've said in other posts that you refuse to refute, there doesn't need to be something in Lott's repertoire for that. He gave BROAD support for a man whose primary focus and purpose in his run for the Presidency was segregation and whose platform was entirely based off segregationist views.

Second, Lott had expressed support for such views in the past.

They glommed onto a sentence, assumed he meant something, and that became the narrative.

As I've said in my other posts you refuse to acknowledge, please...I've yet to find anything beyond that sentence. If you can provide me with something further that shows Lott speaking of what specifically about Thurmonds presidency he was speaking of would've been helpful I'll happily rescind my thought. However he stated it broadly, so its assumed to be meant broadly.

The context says he should get the benefit of the doubt

No, it doesn't. See all my previous posts.

exactly as the context says Harry Reid should get the benefit of the doubt for his "light-skinned negro" comments

I don't think we should give Reid a "pass" for that, but I also don't think its worthy of a lot of hate either. I don't see it as a racist comment, I see it as a definitely RACIAL one though and I don't think anything really counters that from the context. The only thing one could say is that "negro" dialect is "racist" as it would be more politically correct to refer to it as an "urban" dialect, but I'd counter that the dialect he's speaking of is more commonly found and embraced amongst african-american communities in part due to thier higher proliferation within ubran areas but also because some of the more celebrity status members of that community use it as well (such as rappers).

or Clinton and his "bringing us coffee" comment.

I don't see this as a definitively racist comment. Could it be? Yes. But its not nearly as clear cut or broad of a thing as Lott's. The notion of the young guy or the "rookie" being hazed or being a "servent" of suchs is not an uncommon one. Look at football, where rookies are routinely the ones having to carry the shoulder pads of veterans. Look at the work place, where people who are new are usually given the "bitch work" like filing in an office or other such things. Hell, I can look at online communities where new mods or admin are joked about as the "coffee boy" or jokes about them essentially being the "bitch" may occur. The notion that the "rookie" or the "younger people" are subservient to "veterans" is hardly an unusual one, and Clinton's comment can read just as easily as a comment that this guy is still wet under his nose/basically a rookie as it does "This guy would've been our slave!" Indeed, since people didn't have slaves "a few years ago" I actually think its far MORE likely that its a reference to the veteran/rookie mentality more so than the owner/slave mentality.

And more so Lotts comment is nothing like Obama's comment. Obama went into detail, explaining with context enough to give a good indication that:

1. He wasn't referring to mongrel like a dog
2. He wasn't being derogatory to black people
3. He was speaking about mixing of ethnicity

From what I've seen Trent Lott when he made his comments gave no additional context, but simply made a broad comment that is reasonable to consider broadly.
 
No, I don't think Reid or Clinton made racist remarks; I never said I thought they did. I didn't automatically assume that they were, even though on the surface, they sounded pretty bad.

However, the flap over Lott IS comparable, because what he said wasn't racist on its face -- but the flap started immediately. It could be if you dig into it and interpret it a particular way; I never denied that. But he says he didn't mean it that way. And in fact, several of his Democrat colleagues said they don't think he meant it that way.

He said it was an off-the-cuff toast to a friend.

If he DID mean it in a pro-segregationist way, it still wasn't obvious from his words. The point was never that Lott couldn't possibly have meant it that way, only that people were more than willing to jump on it without caring to find out.
 
No, I said more than that. It's unlike you to simply ignore someone's posts like this.

But no matter; I'm not going to repeat it, because I already responded. Pretend I didn't if you like, but this is going nowhere.

......
And more so Lotts comment is nothing like Obama's comment. Obama went into detail, explaining with context enough to give a good indication that:

1. He wasn't referring to mongrel like a dog
2. He wasn't being derogatory to black people
3. He was speaking about mixing of ethnicity

From what I've seen Trent Lott when he made his comments gave no additional context, but simply made a broad comment that is reasonable to consider broadly.

So much arguments arise only because how one word should be understood.

I am baffled to see why a certain group of people have so many words that are untouchable to serve in their identification. In sequence of time: Negro, Nigger, black, color, now mongrel, although one may be less unwelcome than the other. How can we be sure that "African American" will not become offensive someday?

The only fair definition of racism is that what one race can enjoy is not allowed to be equally enjoyed by another race. If one race can enjoy the same thing as the other one, no racism exists between these two races.
 
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