View Poll Results: Are African-Americans a mongrel people?

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  • Yes, because...

    21 48.84%
  • No, because...

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Thread: Are African-Americans a mongrel people?

  1. #151
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    Re: Are African-Americans a mongrel people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    You are missing the point CC.
    Deliberately.

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    Re: Are African-Americans a mongrel people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Why didn't the early poll respondents ask for any? What did they assume?
    You mean like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    Who did you hear this from?
    In the SECOND post in the thread to which Goobie responded with

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Does it matter where I heard it?
    People did, IMMEDIETELY ask to get the actual context of it and goobie immedietely from the start tried to dance around it.

  3. #153
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    Re: Are African-Americans a mongrel people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You mean like this?



    In the SECOND post in the thread to which Goobie responded with



    People did, IMMEDIETELY ask to get the actual context of it and goobie immedietely from the start tried to dance around it.
    No... he asked if it mattered.

    WHY does it matter?
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  4. #154
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    Re: Are African-Americans a mongrel people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    You are missing the point CC.
    Goobie is demonstrating how simply WHO says something is what is CREATING the "context" for many thread followers and participants, and sadly, for many people across the nation.
    Yes Caine, you're absolutely correct.

    WHO says something does play into context.

    For example, if I heard someone go "Reasonable Suspicion is too vague to be reasonable for the Arizona Law" it would likely generate a far different reaction from me if it came out of the mouth of a open-borderes advocate than if it came out of the mouth of a Police Officer.

    If during 2006 I heard a comment "The republicans are abject failures" and had NO indication beyond that of the context, be it what else whas said or who said it, if forced to give a gut reaction to it I'd have said no. If you had told me however it was Newt Gingrich not Nancy Pelosi that said it, and he went on to explain he meant they were failures at upholding some of their principles which caused a severely depressed turnout, I'd actually probably agree with him IN THAT CONTEXT.

    In this case you have a generic comment:

    "Are African-Americans a mongrel people".

    This, without ANY other context, is an insulting comment to many as because of its ambiguity it could be speaking culturually but it could be speaking racially or even colloquiely.

    If you went "Fred Phelps says that African-Americans are a mongrel people" then suddenly I'd definitely say it was an insulting comment as one has further context due to knowledge of the views of the individual in question which helps to paint what he's meaning.

    However when you have Obama stating they're a mongrel people, he specifically points to the "mixed up" nature of their history, likening it to the similar mixed up make up of white individuals, it makes it clear that he's using it less in the way that can be used to insult and more in the way people colloquilaly use things like "mutt" when explaining individuals of extremely mixed ancestory.

    To expand upon my earlier example, you have two statements:

    1. "Republicans failed miserably"
    2. “Republicans failed miserably”

    1. Nancy Pelosi said “Republicans failed miserably”
    2. Newt Gingrich said “Republicans failed miserably”

    1. Nancy Pelosi said “Republicans failed miserably, they ruined the country and the economy”
    2. Newt Gingrich said “Republicans failed miserably, they abandoned conservatism and it caused their base to be disenchanted”

    1. Nancy Pelosi said “Republicans failed miserably, they ruined the country and the economy. Its obvious that the people must elected Democrats into power.”
    2. Newt Gingrich said “Republicans failed miserably, they abandoned conservatism and it caused their base to be disenchanted. The party must embrace conservatism so as to be reelected back into the majority.”

    By your and Goobie’s ridiculous reasoning those two statements are EXACTLY the same and should have EXACTLY the same reaction and EXACTLY the same view because when you take just a snippet of it “Republicans failed miserably” they are saying the same thing. That’s idiotic.

  5. #155
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    Re: Are African-Americans a mongrel people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    No... he asked if it mattered.

    WHY does it matter?
    Because:

    1. WHO says something DOES matter into the context. It gives you a history into their views to know if they've said or done other things to suggest the intent and context behind the words. Your buddy yelling "Hey Asshole" to you is likely to cause you to react differently then random person from the street yelling "Hey Asshole". Why? Because you have knowledge about your buddy and are thus able to better gauge what is likely meant by the comment even though its a similar comment.

    2. WHO said it would allow you to more easily look for additional context or give you a guess that there's more to the comment then simply "African Americans are a mongrel people". Saying "African Americans are a mongrel people, and they should be subjigated so that the White man can take his rightful place as rulers once more" and saying "African Americns are a mongrel people, who like white people, are a race of mixed national origins" are two VERY different meanings and things that both start out with the same snippeted comment. WHO said it allows one to more easily find out the additional comments surroudning it.

    Together, those things make up CONTEXT...you know, this important thing we use to make decisions.

    What you and Goobie are arguing is the same ignorant idea based around the notion that if someone ever says the N-word they are racist because the N-Word automatically ='s racist.

  6. #156
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    Re: Are African-Americans a mongrel people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Yes Caine, you're absolutely correct.

    WHO says something does play into context.

    For example, if I heard someone go "Reasonable Suspicion is too vague to be reasonable for the Arizona Law" it would likely generate a far different reaction from me if it came out of the mouth of a open-borderes advocate than if it came out of the mouth of a Police Officer.

    If during 2006 I heard a comment "The republicans are abject failures" and had NO indication beyond that of the context, be it what else whas said or who said it, if forced to give a gut reaction to it I'd have said no. If you had told me however it was Newt Gingrich not Nancy Pelosi that said it, and he went on to explain he meant they were failures at upholding some of their principles which caused a severely depressed turnout, I'd actually probably agree with him IN THAT CONTEXT.

    In this case you have a generic comment:

    "Are African-Americans a mongrel people".

    This, without ANY other context, is an insulting comment to many as because of its ambiguity it could be speaking culturually but it could be speaking racially or even colloquiely.

    If you went "Fred Phelps says that African-Americans are a mongrel people" then suddenly I'd definitely say it was an insulting comment as one has further context due to knowledge of the views of the individual in question which helps to paint what he's meaning.

    However when you have Obama stating they're a mongrel people, he specifically points to the "mixed up" nature of their history, likening it to the similar mixed up make up of white individuals, it makes it clear that he's using it less in the way that can be used to insult and more in the way people colloquilaly use things like "mutt" when explaining individuals of extremely mixed ancestory.

    To expand upon my earlier example, you have two statements:

    1. "Republicans failed miserably"
    2. “Republicans failed miserably”

    1. Nancy Pelosi said “Republicans failed miserably”
    2. Newt Gingrich said “Republicans failed miserably”

    1. Nancy Pelosi said “Republicans failed miserably, they ruined the country and the economy”
    2. Newt Gingrich said “Republicans failed miserably, they abandoned conservatism and it caused their base to be disenchanted”

    1. Nancy Pelosi said “Republicans failed miserably, they ruined the country and the economy. Its obvious that the people must elected Democrats into power.”
    2. Newt Gingrich said “Republicans failed miserably, they abandoned conservatism and it caused their base to be disenchanted. The party must embrace conservatism so as to be reelected back into the majority.”

    By your and Goobie’s ridiculous reasoning those two statements are EXACTLY the same and should have EXACTLY the same reaction and EXACTLY the same view because when you take just a snippet of it “Republicans failed miserably” they are saying the same thing. That’s idiotic.
    A nice, to the point, and very clearly defined explanation as to why, in this case and many others, ESPECIALLY politics, context is everything.

    If the recent debacle of lousy reporting done by a certain racebaiting blogger didn't teach the why of that, to those that want to pretend it doesn't matter, then their ignorance isn't just pervasive, it's deliberate and calculated.

  7. #157
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    Re: Are African-Americans a mongrel people?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    When I saw Goobie's thread, knowing his past history of posting dishonest bait and trap threads, I would have done what I did. Read the article to see in what context the comment was made. If it was someone else, I would have been far less skeptical, but still would have read the article to see in what context the comment was made. In either case, if context was not disclosed, I would have been just as confrontational. Goobie knows what he did. He does it all the time. Here's an example of what he did:

    "I killed the ass". Tell me if this is an appropriate thing for a President to say?

    Then, when you read the article, you find out that the President said this when he saw a donkey charging at 4 children, so he "killed the ass". Now, Goobie would say that context doesn't matter... because he would be creating a dishonest bait and trap thread to attack liberals. Of course, most people would see through this and understand that context creates a completely different meaning for the statement... something that Goobie denies. I find it quite bizarre that someone would deny the importance of context when discussing the meaning of statements. Goobie's purpose isn't to debate. It's to trap. And I'll keep exposing these traps whenever I see them.
    Maybe, but "I killed the ass" is such an unusual thing to say, you'd automatically want more context, especially if a President said it.

    You're pretty much admitting what I said -- you were overly concerned with context because it was Goobieman. If someone else had asked the same question, no, I don't think you'd have been as concerned.

    Do I agree it was baited and that Goobieman does that kind of thing? Sure. All the time.

    But the point is, in this case, it was a good question to ask, even if he has that history. It's a good point to make.

    And that point is, in case you missed it -- people DON'T ask for context when that kind of statement is made. It's all good and well to say it matters, which it does, but that's not how people operate. If they did, David Howard wouldn't have lost his job.
    Last edited by Harshaw; 07-30-10 at 10:40 AM.
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  8. #158
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    Re: Are African-Americans a mongrel people?

    Thread: Are African-Americans a mongrel people?
    Regardless of all the bantering going on back and forth on this thread, it was an EXCELLENT post. Most of us couldn't help but learn something here. If anyone didn't, they just weren't trying hard enough. (I'm gathering that Goobie is known for this; that just makes the poster "enlightening" -- not disingenuous.)
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  9. #159
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    Re: Are African-Americans a mongrel people?

    I'm still wondering who talks like this. I would never think to call ANY group "a mongrel people". Seems very odd to me. Does he intentionally say things to get a rise out of people?


  10. #160
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    Re: Are African-Americans a mongrel people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    You're pretty much admitting what I said -- you were overly concerned with context because it was Goobieman. If someone else had asked the same question, no, I don't think you'd have been as concerned.
    Which is more the point of why knowing WHO is saying or doing something helps give context.

    In a completely autonomous sense, lets say that "DP" has a server function that generates random discussions from web crawls of other forums, if it came up 'Are African-Americans a mongrel people" I'd probably not worry too much about context and address it as a very broad thing, because in that sense it would be clear that its NOT any more specific than that.

    Similarly, if DonSoutherland posted this I likely would react differently and look at it as a more broad, legit, honest question without searching for a ton more context. Why? Because Don is a poster known for being honest, not into playing games, up front with his views, and generally extremely fair in his presentation. There'd be no reason to assume there's a "gotcha" hiding behind a corner, no reason to assume there's a SPECIFIC situation that occured that this is referencing, no reason to think that he's going to present it in a generic or different context only to then try and suggest that your answer must apply in all contexts.

    Goobieman and how he posts polls is the exact opposite of the above. So in the context of knowing its Goobieman its reasonable to assume that there is a "gotcah" game being played, that there is a larger bit of context to be gleamed, that it does reference something specific that he's going to try and take your general answer and suggest it must evenly apply to it.

    Let me give you another example.

    In scenario one you have a friend that has similar tastes as you and is knowledgable about cars and who is very trustworthy. He comes with you to a used car lot and looks over the cars and suggests the car he thinks will suite your tastes bet and says everything looks good parts wise.

    In scenario two you have a used car salesmen that has a reputation for telling people what they want to hear to get them into whatever car he's wanting to get off the lot. He comes up to you at the used car lot, suggests the car he says will suite your tastes bet and says everything looks good parts wise.

    Again, what you're suggesting is that its unreasonable to treat the exact same comments differently based on who is stating it. Which is ridiculous. Of course you're going to trust the comment as being more honest by the person you know has a history of being honest and knowing you rather than the person who has a history of being dishonest and manipulative.

    Would a conversation regarding the "mongrel" nature of African American's be perhaps a legitimate conversation? Perhaps. However its evident and clear by the person who was posting it, his response in regards to someone asking about it, and more specifically his response once his little game was shown in the true light that this thread was NOT about discussing it in a general sense but an attempt to get people to discuss it in such a way to then act like anyones statements on it in a general sense or in the "typical" sense must apply to a very specific situation.

    However a generic, hypothetical, situation placed in a vacuum != a real life situation with additional context that happens to include the same words.

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