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Do you believe in natural monopolies?

Do you believe in natural monopolies?

  • Yes (Explain)

    Votes: 8 42.1%
  • No (Explain)

    Votes: 11 57.9%
  • Other (Explain

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    19
Why do you think/know this?

Do you agree with me?

If you don't, why do you think/know the opposite is truer?

If you do, you must have seen the reason: Monopoly in a certain field means absolute power in this field.
 
This is irrelevent. If the average total cost of a firm is continually declining it is a natural monopoly. More entrants would mean that each firm produces less, which means each firm faces a higher average total cost. This makes entrance unattractive. It does not really matter if the government causes this or not. [...]

It does, that was the topic of discussion. Not what a monopoly is, but why they arise.
 
Amusing. Mix a little bit of harry and Gab and you get the answer.

Some monopolies exist because of government and some monopolies were taken down because of government.

Utilities are a questionable example, particularly because without a guaranteed monopoly from the government, there wouldn't be the investment.
 
I can give you a natural monopoly: PG&E, or any other electrical company. Due to the nature of electrical grids, it is nigh impossible to have more than one supplier deliver to a neighborhood.
 
I can give you a natural monopoly: PG&E, or any other electrical company. Due to the nature of electrical grids, it is nigh impossible to have more than one supplier deliver to a neighborhood.

Theoretically, it doesn't need to be a monopoly.
We'd have to switch to DC to make it work in a competitive environment though.
I suppose it could continue as AC.:thinking

Those type of monopolies are on their way out(albeit slowly), with the advent and more popular usage of solar panels.
 
I can give you a natural monopoly: PG&E, or any other electrical company. Due to the nature of electrical grids, it is nigh impossible to have more than one supplier deliver to a neighborhood.

Those are natural monopolies put into place by the government.
 
A perfect example of a natural monopoly that has nothing to do with the government is pay-per-view movies.
 
How is that a monopoly?

Those who offer pay per view movies have market power, since the price is not equal to marginal cost. The average cost is always higher than the marginal cost. It has increasing returns to scale. Therefore, it is most efficient for one firm to produce pay-per-view movies.
 
Do you agree with me?

If you don't, why do you think/know the opposite is truer?

If you do, you must have seen the reason: Monopoly in a certain field means absolute power in this field.
I neither agree nor disagree. I simply don’t know.

Why is it assured (from your perspective) that an entity, upon or shortly after achieving a monopoly in its field of business, will loose the factors that got it that monopoly status?

If they did, a competitor would shortly arise, with the same factors in its favor, to eliminate their monopoly, or so it seems to me.

Would they not strive to keep competitors from entering the market, or at the least from eliminating their monopoly?

And if we are only considering lawful and fair methods here, the factors I mentioned would be quite important in accomplishing that…Wouldn’t they?

Perhaps I’m not seeing your point…
 
I neither agree nor disagree. I simply don’t know.

Why is it assured (from your perspective) that an entity, upon or shortly after achieving a monopoly in its field of business, will loose the factors that got it that monopoly status?

If they did, a competitor would shortly arise, with the same factors in its favor, to eliminate their monopoly, or so it seems to me.

Would they not strive to keep competitors from entering the market, or at the least from eliminating their monopoly?

And if we are only considering lawful and fair methods here, the factors I mentioned would be quite important in accomplishing that…Wouldn’t they?

Perhaps I’m not seeing your point…

If I say "absolute power leads to absolute corruption", you may say I am too general and abstract.

One thing for sure is that, whatever an entity is, striving for comfort is its ultimate goal to access to a monopolization state. Striving for service is not in such goal, although the service, after acquiring the monopoly status, has become a continuous tool to extract comfort. The evolvement from being good to less good is not to happen over night, but gradually; it has been allowed to do so because no competitors gives it pressure any more. Your " upon or shortly after" has also indicated this gradual evolvement.

Once such entity becomes a monopoly, its constant target is to make sure to kill the appearance of competitor, not the happiness of those who expect service from this entity. AS to how to kill, it is too involved to address here, but definitely not through good service. Perhapse, throat slitting low price maybe one of the strategies in killing, but only for a while, good only till the new competitor is dead.

Of course, the anti-trust law will forbid the monopoly entity from abusing its monopoly status, but this not the nature of the monopoly entity.

"And if we are only considering lawful and fair methods here, the factors I mentioned would be quite important in accomplishing that…Wouldn’t they?" Yes, ideally. But how often can we live ideally? Almost never!
 
Theoretically, it doesn't need to be a monopoly.
We'd have to switch to DC to make it work in a competitive environment though.
I suppose it could continue as AC.:thinking

Those type of monopolies are on their way out(albeit slowly), with the advent and more popular usage of solar panels.

I really don't see how AC power could be anything other than a monopoly (don't know about DC delivery enough to comment). Either way, it naturally forms a monopoly by nature of delivery.
 
The problem here is people separating government from business. For instance if we had a "stateless" free market or anarcho-capitalism there would in fact be government because it would arise from the businesses that emerge. To consider it another way think about empires. These governments are not enabled by some global government yet gain a "monopoly" of sorts on territories, especially strategically significant territories.

In an unrestricted free market business would naturally pursue more and more business, as well as trying to get rid of their competition. Any success at doing either builds momentum. The more a business expands the more capable it gets at extinguishing competition. The more competition it removes, the more the business expands. Theoretically this process could go on until it gains absolute control of an industry.

Also one has to consider that an unrestricted free market might lead to vertical integration of a company. Retailers buying out the manufacturers of goods and so forth. There is also the cartel system where several major businesses cooperate to control an industry.

One would likely see both systems become more frequent in an unrestricted free market and a number of methods being employed to lock out competitors. Indeed, the notion of "stateless" free markets is absurd. Business would function as the State and like all states they would seek to increase their control until they had absolute power.
 
If I say "absolute power leads to absolute corruption", you may say I am too general and abstract.

One thing for sure is that, whatever an entity is, striving for comfort is its ultimate goal to access to a monopolization state. Striving for service is not in such goal, although the service, after acquiring the monopoly status, has become a continuous tool to extract comfort. The evolvement from being good to less good is not to happen over night, but gradually; it has been allowed to do so because no competitors gives it pressure any more. Your " upon or shortly after" has also indicated this gradual evolvement.

Once such entity becomes a monopoly, its constant target is to make sure to kill the appearance of competitor, not the happiness of those who expect service from this entity. AS to how to kill, it is too involved to address here, but definitely not through good service. Perhapse, throat slitting low price maybe one of the strategies in killing, but only for a while, good only till the new competitor is dead.

Of course, the anti-trust law will forbid the monopoly entity from abusing its monopoly status, but this not the nature of the monopoly entity.

"And if we are only considering lawful and fair methods here, the factors I mentioned would be quite important in accomplishing that…Wouldn’t they?" Yes, ideally. But how often can we live ideally? Almost never!
So we wouldn't need anti-trust laws if we had laws that somehow prevented those negative methods directed at preventing/eliminating competition which you speak of?
 
So we wouldn't need anti-trust laws if we had laws that somehow prevented those negative methods directed at preventing/eliminating competition which you speak of?

Don't you think "laws that somehow prevented those negative methods directed at preventing/eliminating" is one form of anti-trust laws? I believe anti-trust law is absolutely necessary. Making such law is an indispensible function and an inescapable responsibility of a healthy capitalist government.

Healthy capitalism means healthy free market in which all transactions are genuinely free. By free, it means that the will of both the seller and the purchaser in any trade is fully respected. Once monopoly appears, such respect gradually disappears; free market is gradually losing its true free nature, free trade is eroded.

One big misfortune and misconception in today's society is that, when people talk about monopoly, they only pay attention to capital monopoly, but completely ignore the monopoly of labor force. Not only that, they even encourage and promote monopoly of labor force by law, glamorize such monopoly in every way, in morality, in public opinion.

Labor force monopolization is far more dangerous to the human future than monopolization of capital. Capitalism is dying under our nose; the main culprit is labor force monopolization.

If America wants to survive like what she was (not "is"), she must apply anti-trust law to labor force monopolization with ten times of strength as what she has done to the capital monopolization. Otherwise, all of us must prepare to live in a Socialist America very soon.

Socialism, a social system that condemns and subsequently expels free market, must be a system that embraces forced trade. She has no other choice. Can you think of other form of trade besides free trade and forced trade? Forced trade means one hundred percent of enslaving. Do you see other choice?
 
First, let me say I have very little (perhaps no) formal knowledge of how the economy/business/whatever works.


What I say is, as a result, based on knowledge in other areas, and what I use for common sense.


Don't you think "laws that somehow prevented those negative methods directed at preventing/eliminating" is one form of anti-trust laws?
Of course.


I believe anti-trust law is absolutely necessary. Making such law is an indispensible function and an inescapable responsibility of a healthy capitalist government.
Depending on how, exactly, those laws go about preventing trusts, I would agree that they are necessary.


Healthy capitalism means healthy free market in which all transactions are genuinely free. By free, it means that the will of both the seller and the purchaser in any trade is fully respected. Once monopoly appears, such respect gradually disappears; free market is gradually losing its true free nature, free trade is eroded.
Interesting point.


My take on this is that instead of making laws that punish partial or full “trusts”, make laws that prevent them from forming and/or sustaining themselves (in the form of a trust, that is) if they already exist.


One big misfortune and misconception in today's society is that, when people talk about monopoly, they only pay attention to capital monopoly, but completely ignore the monopoly of labor force. Not only that, they even encourage and promote monopoly of labor force by law, glamorize such monopoly in every way, in morality, in public opinion.
I don’t.


Monopoly of labor can probably be just as bad, depending on varied factors I don’t have full knowledge of.


Labor force monopolization is far more dangerous to the human future than monopolization of capital. Capitalism is dying under our nose; the main culprit is labor force monopolization.
That’s your opinion, and you may be correct. I have no way of knowing one way or the other.


If America wants to survive like what she was (not "is"), she must apply anti-trust law to labor force monopolization with ten times of strength as what she has done to the capital monopolization. Otherwise, all of us must prepare to live in a Socialist America very soon.
That might be a bit of a stretch…


Socialism, a social system that condemns and subsequently expels free market, must be a system that embraces forced trade. She has no other choice. Can you think of other form of trade besides free trade and forced trade? Forced trade means one hundred percent of enslaving. Do you see other choice?
Those last few phrases are a bit incoherent…

As I understand the concept of socialism, it relies on everyone involved being willing (not forced) to give all that they produce/possess to a collective poll that everyone then draws from.


That, obviously (at least to me), can never happen. Human nature prevents it.


I believe you are thinking more of Communism, or at least the form practiced in the former USSR.
---------

But really, it all depends on how you define things.

I could argue that if you create any laws regulating/restricting trade, it would no longer be “free trade”.

I take your point, though.
 
My take on this is that instead of making laws that punish partial or full “trusts”, make laws that prevent them from forming and/or sustaining themselves (in the form of a trust, that is) if they already exist .
Prevention is always more ideal, but ideal things are always less possible.

As I understand the concept of socialism, it relies on everyone involved being willing (not forced) to give all that they produce/possess to a collective poll that everyone then draws from.

That is the society, pictorial only, though, with which the socialists lure people to follow.

Don't forget, to get to that society, people need leaders. For the leaders to function well, they need power and form a leading core to operate the power; such a power cannot tolerate a second leading core. Here is how power monopolization develops and comes into play. Just imagine, once the "ideal" society is realized, will the political core that has led the people to build a new society dismiss itself? The nature and essence of politics will only tell you "NO"; they will stay in power forever, as long as it could.


That, obviously (at least to me), can never happen. Human nature prevents it.
You get it right, too.

I believe you are thinking more of Communism, or at least the form practiced in the former USSR.

According to the socialists, Communism is a more advanced and thus more perfect model of Socialism. Actually, it is the same criminal but having advanced from a father to a grandfather. The essence of both is monopolization of power. Absolute power monopolization naturally means absolute enslaving to its subjects.

My overall comment to your overall comment is: If everyone in America can think in the way you think, we would have been able to remove at least one half of the Socialist danger that this country is facing. Thanks, sincerely.
 
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Prevention is always more ideal, but ideal things are always less possible.
I don’t mean prevention exclusively.

I mean…indirect restrictions, if you will.

Not “your business cannot exceed X% of the market, as determined by us”, but rather “your business cannot engage in x, y, and z actions (which actions would allow them to easily reach that state of partial or complete monopoly).

I think, personally, that if there were laws protecting smaller businesses from being eliminated by larger, more people would try to challenge the bigger businesses, creating competition, and preventing monopolies.

That is the society, pictorial only, though, with which the socialists lure people to follow.
But of course. An idealistic vision is quite attractive…Hell, if it were viable, I would ascribe to it as well, it would make the various things I wish I had the money for perhaps easier to achieve…but I know that such is not the case. Indeed, in such a society, my wishes would likely have not occurred to me.

Don't forget, to get to that society, people need leaders. For the leaders to function well, they need power and form a leading core to operate the power; such a power cannot tolerate a second leading core. Here is how power monopolization develops and comes into play. Just imagine, once the "ideal" society is realized, will the political core that has led the people to build a new society dismiss itself? The nature and essence of politics will only tell you "NO"; they will stay in power forever, as long as it could.
That’s one plus side to the current multiple power cores in the USA – Government, business, labor...Are there any more? Unless I’m incorrect, and it’s all one whole – but rather than the current setup, that seems to be the direction it’s moving towards.


Bla.


You get it right, too.
I hope so.

According to the socialists, Communism is a more advanced and thus more perfect model of Socialism. Actually, it is the same criminal but having advanced from a father to a grandfather. The essence of both is monopolization of power. Absolute power monopolization naturally means absolute enslaving to its subjects.
Not all socialists. I’m fairly sure there’s at least one on this forum who would disagree.

But some, assuredly.

My overall comment to your overall comment is: If everyone in America can think in the way you think, we would have been able to remove at least one half of the Socialist danger that this country is facing. Thanks, sincerely.
Which is probably why I get pissed at about half of the US population from time to time.

/shrug
 
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Healthy capitalism means healthy free market in which all transactions are genuinely free. By free, it means that the will of both the seller and the purchaser in any trade is fully respected. Once monopoly appears, such respect gradually disappears; free market is gradually losing its true free nature, free trade is eroded.

The era of "Free Capitalism" died at the end of the 19th century. The tendency of competition to transform into monopoly and the accumulation of capital killed that off long ago. Yes, there have been laws that have opposed the direct and open power of monopolies (such as the time leading up to WWI) but that does not mean that monopolies no longer exist, nor does it mean that we live in an era of "free competition".

Capitalism has a tendency to transform free competition into monopoly capital. It is built into the way that the system works. There is no "stopping" it.
 
Which is probably why I get pissed at about half of the US population from time to time.

Hope some of them wake up soon before too late. Cheer!
 
The era of "Free Capitalism" died at the end of the 19th century. The tendency of competition to transform into monopoly and the accumulation of capital killed that off long ago. Yes, there have been laws that have opposed the direct and open power of monopolies (such as the time leading up to WWI) but that does not mean that monopolies no longer exist, nor does it mean that we live in an era of "free competition".

Capitalism has a tendency to transform free competition into monopoly capital. It is built into the way that the system works. There is no "stopping" it.

I don't know about that.

Two of the most favorite to quote monopolies, we're starting to crumble by the time the feds started to take action.
U.S. steel lost market share, not because of federal intervention but because such an unwieldy organization loses efficiency.

The same thing was happening to Standard Oil.
But then again they benefited directly from another granted monopoly.
 
The era of "Free Capitalism" died at the end of the 19th century.
This is a typical view that can be found in almost all the classic writings for Communism, serving to legitimate the power usurpation movement launched by the Socialists. The fact is that the most typical government of Capitalism, the USA, is working hard aiming at pushing forward various anti-trust laws during this period, although not completely successful.

The tendency of competition to transform into monopoly and the accumulation of capital killed that off long ago. Yes, there have been laws that have opposed the direct and open power of monopolies (such as the time leading up to WWI) but that does not mean that monopolies no longer exist, nor does it mean that we live in an era of "free competition".

Capitalism does have her weak points. One of the weak point is that she may lead to monopolization. However, there are two types of monopolization in the same society: Monopolization of capital and monopolization of labor force. As far as monopolization of capital is concerned, she does have shown to the world that she is more than willing to self-improve and self-restrict through laws and regulations. No political system of any other kind has ever shown such flexibility, if not benevolence, in human history. As far as monopolization of labor force is concerned, extremely unfortunate to capitalism, not only she has no law to restrict it, but she even has law to protect, guarantee, encourage such monopolization. The public glamorizes the monopolization of labor force through morality and opinion.

Yes, what we can see now is that capitalism is dying. However, what leads to her death is not the monopolization of capital; it is the monopolization of labor force that strangles her. It is a typical case that a murderer accused a victim, who starts with a helpful nature, of plotting the inevitable death scene.

Capitalism has a tendency to transform free competition into monopoly capital.

Again, it is only half (or even only 1/8) way true. Do not forget the monopoly of labor force. It is the monopoly of labor force that is the far more destructive factor to destroy capitalism.

It is built into the way that the system works. There is no "stopping" it.

All kind of anti-trust law and law suit have told us what you said is not true as far as monopoly of capital is concerned. What you said is so far correct, as far as labor force monopolization is concerned.

Have you ever pondered that monopolization of labor force is far more dangerous to human future than capital monopolization? While capitalist society does enact law to restrict capital monopolization, have you ever seen any Socialist country enacting law to restrict absolute power monopolization, in which capital is only one small item to be monopolized?
 
HG said:
I don't know about that.

About which part?

crebigsol said:
This is a typical view that can be found in almost all the classic writings for Communism, serving to legitimate the power usurpation movement launched by the Socialists.

It was a quite common belief held at the time and had little to do with whether or not one was a socialist.

"50 or 60 large corporations, each controlled by two, three or four men, do 80 per cent of the industrial business of the country." - New York Times April 27, 1930. Extracted from Truth About the Trusts by John Moody (i.e. the founder of Moody's Corporation).

"Moreover, by pyramiding successive buyers of holding companies on one another, a few entrepreneurs with a relatively small investment could dominate the policies of operating companies representing a vast investment at the bottom." Government and the American Economy by Fainsod & Gordon, p.437.

This was also the time when many (bourgeois, i.e. pro-capitalist) economists were lauding monopoly as a "new form of capitalism" superior to the old ways of competition, for absorbing economic crises, for example.

The fact is that the most typical government of Capitalism, the USA, is working hard aiming at pushing forward various anti-trust laws during this period, although not completely successful.

"Thus, [regarding the Sherman Anti-Trust Act] antagonism to trusts became an ostensibly bipartisan policy, but it was in fact believed in strongly by the leaders of neither party." - ibid. p.451

The Sherman Anti-Trust Act wasn't enforced for years. Moreover, the legislation against monopolization were against (in the late 19th century) the trust proper and not against monopolization in general. The trust movement was brought to a standstill at the end of the 19th century, but monopolization took on a new form with the holding company.

"Combines during this period [1896-1904] were based largely on the structure of the holding company, rather than on the trusteeship form of organization."

Following this was a period of hostility to the monopolies, which included the SCotUS dissolving the Northern Securities Co., Standard Oil and American Tobacco. Yet this dissolution did not change the fact that by this time monopoly capital had dominated.

Moreover, by WW1 the policy was shifted once more:

"Webb-Pomerene Bill was rushed through congress with a view to encourage great corporations to present a united front in the struggle for markets abroad."

So to say that the "government is working hard" is somewhat of a lie. The role of the state is to maintain the conditions of its rule, not to attack monopolies. It will do so generally only insomuch as it prevents the collapse of the system. Finally, to say that it's actually necessary for government to enact such laws validates my point.

Competition transforms into monopoly. This is a historically established fact.
 
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