View Poll Results: Gay people are born/hardwired to be gay

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  • I watched the videos, and I agree

    7 18.92%
  • I didn't watch the videos, and I agree

    15 40.54%
  • I watched the videos, and I disagree

    2 5.41%
  • I didn't watch the videos, and I disagree

    1 2.70%
  • I still don't know

    1 2.70%
  • Don't know, and further don't care

    7 18.92%
  • Other (there's always one ....)

    4 10.81%
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Thread: Gay people are hardwired

  1. #41
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    Re: Gay people are hardwired

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    Thanks.

    When I was in China there were a few very attractive Chinese men that I met who were very flirly with me. I'm not normally into Asian guys but every now and then there are a few lookers who come my way. They were super flirtatious, asking me out for drinks, asking me if I had a girlfriend. It was so obvious that they were "gay"... but every time I asked them if they had a boyfriend, or they were seeing a guy, or if they were gay, they became offended and stopped talking to me. It was through these hard lessons that I eventually learned that "gay" is an identity that we choose in the western world. It is new and not historically normal to adhere to such labels.

    "Gay" people in traditional Asia don't see themselves as gay. As soon as you ask them if they are gay, it conjures images of all of the queer men in North America and Europe who dance in their underwear on floats on pride day. They immediately reject the notion. But they still sleep with men, even if they are fulfilling their traditional obligation of marrying a woman and having a child. They simply don't call it anything or choose an identity based on their behavior.

    I think our world would be a lot better off without the labels. Even if I'm into men 100% of the time, why should I call myself gay?

    Again, I think this discussion is an advanced level for people to grasp, but before our society ever had "gay", it had men who slept with men in secret. Perhaps all these labels will just be an issue before they are eventually a non-issue, and people come to realize that sexuality is this fluidic, nebulous collection of desires that don't need to have a specific rationale.
    As popular as your ideas apparently are with the forum at large, something about them just rubs me the wrong way.
    You're very clever, and so I can't quite put my finger on it.
    For some reason, the idea that keeps popping into my mind is the recent "feminist" thread, where some woman said, in effect, "Being a feminist is about reveling in your femininity and doing whatever you want to do, even if that means choosing traditional gender roles."
    She got thanked a zillion times for that, but something about it raises all sorts of red flags for me.

    I guess it's this: gays- like women, to some extent- are still, to this day, discriminated against in our society.

    A smart woman like me is not "being a feminist" by reveling in the fact that today I have a choice of whether to work or to loll on the couch eating bonbons, accepting a subordinate role in my own household and letting some man support me.
    There are other women who don't have all the options and choices that I have.
    Because of their biological sex, their lives are a sort of prison.
    In a climate where these issues still exist, even if mostly for the underprivileged... a "feminist" is someone who actively works toward empowerment of and sexual equality for all women, not merely someone who makes personal choices involving her own life, and revels in her "femininity" (a line which actually reminds me of that book The Feminine Mystique by Betty Friedan, circa 1963; anyone who's read it will understand what I'm referring to).

    Similarly, it bothers me that a smart guy like you would decline to self-identify as "gay", when gays are currently discriminated against in our society and need every voice they can get- especially rational, intelligent ones like yours- to aid them in their struggle for equality.

    To decline to self-identify as gay seems like a cop-out, an avoidance of the difficulties that come along with the label, simply because you have that option.
    Not all gays do. When you won't self-identify as gay, it feels like you're bailing on them.

    If I decline to self-identify as "feminist", or if I agree with some glib, feel-good sentiment such as "Being a feminist means doing whatever you want, including abiding by traditional female gender roles, as long as that's what you want to do and as long as you revel in your femininity while doing it", it feels like the same cop-out, for the same reasons.
    Nearly everybody claims to hate "feminazis", aka militant feminists.
    Who would want to be something that everybody hates?
    Nearly everybody claims to hate "aggressively queer" gay-rights proponents, the kind of gays who "shove their sexuality in your face", the kind likely to be found dancing in their underwear at gay pride parades, perhaps.
    Again, who would want to be something that nearly everybody hates and scorns? Who wants that stigma?

    But sometimes who we are is not about what we want, it's about what the world needs.
    If equal rights for all is truly something you believe in, it might not be enough to simply enjoy your life, do whatever you want, and avoid labels, thereby avoiding controversy.
    Some people don't have the privilege of being able to avoid labels- or controversy, or discrimination- through no fault of their own.
    As long as that's the case, it seems unethical for people like you to distance yourself from the struggles and inequities they face by refusing to "be labeled".

    Sigh. I know that doesn't make much sense. I'm having trouble conveying my ideas into words tonight. I'm really tired.
    Doesn't it make you feel like a sell-out, though?
    I guess that's what i really mean to say, and there's no nice way to say it.
    Last edited by 1069; 07-23-10 at 11:46 PM.

  2. #42
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    Re: Gay people are hardwired

    Quote Originally Posted by BCR View Post
    but a handful verses in the bible say it's an abomination, surely we should use it as our reference as to how we treat gays!
    Stick a little cocktail toothpic in them, dip them in hollandaise and then nibble about their edges as we small talk with the bosses wife at the company Christmas party?



    Ops, my bad. I was thinking of shellfish.
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  3. #43
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    Re: Gay people are hardwired

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    Sigh. I know that doesn't make much sense. I'm having trouble conveying my ideas into words tonight. I'm really tired.
    Doesn't it make you feel like a sell-out, though?
    I guess that's what i really mean to say, and there's no nice way to say it.
    Excellent post, and no I am not offended by your question.

    I think maybe my philosophical side was taking centre stage earlier and not shedding light on certain realities. I totally agree with you that the labels serves a political purpose for empowerment. Even though I liked the simplicity of what I saw in China, I also saw it as being a product of a social framework that is actively denying that same-sex interactions are taking place. I went to Shanghai's first ever gay pride in June 2009 and the government banned it from walking the streets. The whole thing was confined to one big bar. It was still a big deal to be having it at all, but the underground nature made it feel kind of deviant.

    The labeling scheme is necessary at this point because right now it's still an issue, just like feminism is still an issue even though post-modern women are actively deciding to be homemakers. I think a lot of people make the easy mistake of seeing relative improvements as being the absolute zenith of improvements. There is always room for improvement, and frankly, there are still glaring needs for it. My ideas earlier were mostly very forward thinking, and well beyond the scope of where our social world is at right now. I think even in a place like western Europe where society is more progressive, the idea of lassiez-faire sexuality without fixed identities is a fairly underground notion. Humans in their very nature like to categorize in order to understand the world and the sexual labels are just a symptom of that. Mind you, there will always be men who have sex with men that self-identify as "straight" in order to meet social norms. The presence of the labels doesn't change the fundamental behaviors.

    I think humans will always be that way to some extent, but with sexuality it is my hope that we can eventually get past the need to type-cast our desires into terms that we are obliged to identity with, and simply live what it is that we want to live in the moment.

    Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, there is a big difference between what I saw in China and what I would like to see in the future, even though they seem to play out the same way. China is a label-less system of underground forays where people are still trapped by guilt and discrimination from expressing their desires openly; it is label-less not because they have moved beyond labels, but because there has been no civil rights movement to establish the labels in the first place; whereas my futurism is beyond the post-modern and embodies a system where people can be with who they want and it doesn't have to imply an affiliation if they don't want it to. Their labels have been fought for and procured, only to be discarded with the full consciousness that they are no longer necessary.

    I do self-identity as gay both for simplicity's sake in engaging with other people, and because I have experienced the discrimination of what it means to carry this identity and I choose to wear it proudly. I believe there is a lot of work to be done and my voice is an important contribution as a gay man.

    Does that make more sense?
    Last edited by Orion; 07-24-10 at 12:10 AM. Reason: Damn typos!!!

  4. #44
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    Re: Gay people are hardwired

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    Excellent post, and no I am not offended by your question.

    I think maybe my philosophical side was taking centre stage earlier and not shedding light on certain realities. I totally agree with you that the labels serves a political purpose for empowerment. Even though I liked the simplicity of what I saw in China, I also saw it as being a product of a social framework that is actively denying that same-sex interactions are taking place. I went to Shanghai's first ever gay pride in June 2009 and the government banned it from walking the streets. The whole thing was confined to one big bar. It was still a big deal to be having it at all, but the underground nature made it feel kind of deviant.

    The labeling scheme is necessary at this point because right now it's still an issue, just like feminism is still an issue even though post-modern women are actively deciding to be homemakers. I think a lot of people make the easy mistake of seeing relative improvements as being the absolute zenith of improvements. There is always room for improvement, and frankly, there are still glaring needs for it. My ideas earlier were mostly very forward thinking, and well beyond the scope of where our social world is at right now. I think even in a place like western Europe where society is more progressive, the idea of lassiez-faire sexuality without fixed identities is a fairly underground notion. Humans in their very nature like to categorize in order to understand the world and the sexual labels are just a symptom of that. Mind you, there will always be men who have sex with men that self-identify as "straight" in order to meet social norms. The presence of the labels doesn't change the fundamental behaviors.

    I think humans will always be that way to some extent, but with sexuality it is my hope that we can eventually get past the need to type-cast our desires into terms that we are obliged to identity with, and simply live what it is that we want to live in the moment.

    Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, there is a big difference between what I saw in China and what I would like to see in the future, even though they seem to play out the same way. China is a labele-less system of underground forays where people are still trapped by guilt and discrimination from expressing their desires openly; it is label-less not because they have moved beyond labels, but because there has been no civil rights movement to establish the labels in the fire place; whereas my futurism is beyond the post-modern and embodies a system where people can be with who they want and it doesn't have to imply an affiliation if they don't want it to. They labels have been fought for a procured, only to be discarded with the full consciousness that they are no longer necessary.

    I do self-identity as gay both for simplicity's sake in engaging with other people, and because I have experienced the discrimination of what it means to carry this identity and I choose to wear it proudly. I believe there is a lot of work to be done and my voice is an important contribution as a gay man.

    Does that make more sense?
    Yes, absolutely.

  5. #45
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    Re: Gay people are hardwired

    I have to say, as someone who has almost completed a biology major, what I have learned would point to a partial genetic influence and a partial environmental influence on one's sexuality. Often times someone will have gene X which acts as a switch that can be flipped 'on' or 'off' by environmental factor Y. While it is pure speculation on my part as I haven't personally looked into the situation, my personal belief is that it's partilly genetic and partially environmental.

    Needless to say, I voted other.

  6. #46
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    Re: Gay people are hardwired

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Notice both are from Leviticus.

    Shall we also believe this one from the same book? Every teenager I know, from me on, would've never made it past 19.

    How about this one?

    Or this one?

    'Nuff said on that one.

    Gotta' be careful what we believe in the Bible, yes????
    -------------------------------

    I voted B in your poll, but I never like absolutes. It came the closest to my thoughts, though. I think some people become gay because they chose to experiment and kinda' liked it. I think some become gay because they find same-sex relationships "safer and easier." Others, because they have been molested as children and are just totally screwed up. I'm sure there are other reasons why someone "turns gay." And I'm sure some people do.
    relax, I was being sarcastic...lol

  7. #47
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    Re: Gay people are hardwired

    I feel all people are born bisexual and things that happen to people as babies, in childhood, etc. lead people to slap a whatever label on themselves. I was born bisexual and pretty sure so was everybody else but that some people based on things during babyhood & childhood may lean towards being attracted to one sex over the other.
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  8. #48
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    Re: Gay people are hardwired

    Quote Originally Posted by Kali View Post
    I feel all people are born bisexual and things that happen to people as babies, in childhood, etc. lead people to slap a whatever label on themselves. I was born bisexual and pretty sure so was everybody else but that some people based on things during babyhood & childhood may lean towards being attracted to one sex over the other.
    Kali, absolutely no offense in anything I say here. How do you know you were born bi-sexual? Don't doubt that you may have been hardwired that way, but how would you know that? Your statement that you're pretty sure everybody else is also born that way cannot be substantiated. Highly doubtful in my mind.
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    Re: Gay people are hardwired

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Kali, absolutely no offense in anything I say here. How do you know you were born bi-sexual? Don't doubt that you may have been hardwired that way, but how would you know that? Your statement that you're pretty sure everybody else is also born that way cannot be substantiated. Highly doubtful in my mind.
    Because I was attracted to both males and females from the time I was young.

    Of course I cannot prove that all people are born bi-sexual which is why I made sure to say "I feel".. Just sharing "my" thoughts.
    ~Following My Own Flow~

  10. #50
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    Re: Gay people are hardwired

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    But when you take out the religious element, they don't have another argument. There is no logical reason to discriminate against LGBT people.
    Sure. It's not like there aren't lots of people who are about as religious as a dog is, who nonetheless don't like homos and think homosexuality is unnatural.

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