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Thread: Libertarians: which do you identify with more, the Left or Right?

  1. #31
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    Re: Libertarians: which do you identify with more, the Left or Right?

    Yes, I'm a libertarian myself and fully aware that they are fiscally conservative and socially liberal. I suppose a better way to phrase my question would be this: which is more important to you; a minimal welfare state, low taxes, the free market, etc; or nonaggressive foreign policy, being pro-gay marriage, and so on?
    Definitely the former. This is ultimately the question you want answered, which will identify you as a textbook libertarian or "left-libertarian". I think most of the former concern themselves with lower taxes and a minarchist view, while left-libertarians are really liberals that can't quite subscribe to a bloated bureaucracy or redistribution.

  2. #32
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    Re: Libertarians: which do you identify with more, the Left or Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Zawisza View Post
    Yes, I'm a libertarian myself and fully aware that they are fiscally conservative and socially liberal. I suppose a better way to phrase my question would be this: which is more important to you; a minimal welfare state, low taxes, the free market, etc; or nonaggressive foreign policy, being pro-gay marriage, and so on?
    Can we not have both? Well I don't think anyone really needs to be "pro-gay marriage", you can hate it if you want, but as it is a contract and people have the right to contract, we should note that we can't legitimately use government to fight it. I like non-aggressive foreign policy as well. Do you have to go to war? Sometimes, yes. But I'd rather we keep our military as strictly defensive. And I would put that on the same level as reduced federal government, minimal welfare state, lower taxes, and an actual free market system. Which are all important. We're not imperial here, we don't have the responsibility to go around nation building and bringing democracy to the world. We waste too much money on the endeavor. That doesn't mean that we're isolationists, but rather non-interventionist (as much as possible, sometimes you have to get involved).
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #33
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    Re: Libertarians: which do you identify with more, the Left or Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Zawisza View Post
    You support laws criminalizing murder (I assume). How is that not enforcing morality?
    Every law in existence is a form of legislating morality, so I don't think that "legislating morality" is a good description of laws we don't agree with. The disagreement pertains to which morality should be legislated:

    1. Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose, or
    2. Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose -- unless you might hurt yourself.

  4. #34
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    Re: Libertarians: which do you identify with more, the Left or Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Zawisza View Post
    You want to criminalize murder because you want to prevent people from harming others, which you see as wrong. Is that not enforcing morality?
    It's not a matter of it being right or wrong, that's all subjective. It's a matter of it being harmful or not to the society. If we're going around killing one another willy nilly, that's harmful to society. "Right" or "Wrong" is irrelevant. Even harming another is kind of irrelevant because then you have to define harm to the individual. Emotional harm? Physical harm? If I break up with a boyfriend and he's emotionally devastated, did I "harm" him? Obviously lines must be drawn, and that line should stop where it affects society. Running around beating up people, killing them, raping them, stealing their ****... all of that negatively affects society because it makes it impossible to keep any semblence of order. And hey, that's fine if that's the type of society you want. But if that's NOT the type of society you want, then you must work to criminalize the things that harm the society.
    Last edited by rivrrat; 07-23-10 at 01:41 PM.

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    Re: Libertarians: which do you identify with more, the Left or Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Zawisza View Post
    Sorry if this ticks some of you off, but I intentionally left out a "Moderate" option in the poll. I'd rather not have anybody sitting on the fence.

    If you're having trouble, think about this: when someone posts a thread with a title claiming the entire Left or Right is bigoted, delusional, etc, does your reaction change depending on which side is being targeted?
    Heres what I find even MORE fascinating...YOUR (and lets be honest...others as well) fascination...no...obsession...with "libertarians." Hell you have Gabriel slobbering in anticipation and throwing down handfulls of popcorn in anticipation! Seriously...fellas...WTF???

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    Re: Libertarians: which do you identify with more, the Left or Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Zawisza View Post
    Sorry if this ticks some of you off, but I intentionally left out a "Moderate" option in the poll. I'd rather not have anybody sitting on the fence.

    If you're having trouble, think about this: when someone posts a thread with a title claiming the entire Left or Right is bigoted, delusional, etc, does your reaction change depending on which side is being targeted?
    No, my reaction does not change. I hate them both equally.

  7. #37
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    Re: Libertarians: which do you identify with more, the Left or Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Heres what I find even MORE fascinating...YOUR (and lets be honest...others as well) fascination...no...obsession...with "libertarians." Hell you have Gabriel slobbering in anticipation and throwing down handfulls of popcorn in anticipation! Seriously...fellas...WTF???
    You will find that there are some people on this board who are obsessed with us. Some may just honestly be curious, but many others are just plain hostile and will do anything they can whenever they can to make a point of insulting libertarians.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  8. #38
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    Re: Libertarians: which do you identify with more, the Left or Right?

    I'm an ex-libertarian who was raised as a conservative. I've always leaned somewhat to the right, but in the last few years I've come to dislike the right about as much as the left...maybe even more in some ways. I find liberals a bit more intellectually honest.

    I disagree with labeling welfare, taxes, and free markets as conservative causes and non-aggression as a liberal cause. Non-aggression is historically a conservative policy. Remember that it was the liberal Democrats Roosevelt and Johnson who gave us some of our worst wars right along with the New Deal and the Great Society. Warfare and welfare are both "big government" projects.

    As for drugs, I think too much time is spent haggling over philosophical nuances like the meaning of "harm." If the damage that drugs supposedly do to people, families, and society were remotely comparable to the damage done by prohibition, it might be worth having that discussion. But it's not even close. Drugs are as safe as milk compared to prohibition, so that's the angle I think we should argue.

  9. #39
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    Re: Libertarians: which do you identify with more, the Left or Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You will find that there are some people on this board who are obsessed with us. Some may just honestly be curious, but many others are just plain hostile and will do anything they can whenever they can to make a point of insulting libertarians.
    Typically that says far more about them than it does about me (or libertarians).

  10. #40
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    Re: Libertarians: which do you identify with more, the Left or Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    I would like to pose a question in regards to socially liberal libertarians. Are those views held because the individual believes the government shouldn't legislate morals (gay marriage, prostitution, abortions, etc). Or are they held because libertarians believe these things are morally correct and assert that the government should recognize them as so and extend legality/benefits to such things? If the first is true, would that be considered a left of the spectrum opinion? Or more of a "small government" right end of the spectrum opinion?


    Personally I'm very conservative, I don't care however what others do.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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