View Poll Results: Dind The Federal Govt create the states, or states create federal govt

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  • The federal government created the states

    2 5.13%
  • The states created the federal government

    31 79.49%
  • Other

    6 15.38%
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Thread: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal Gov

  1. #61
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    In short, you have to rely upon someone that ruled on an issue that was not a founding father and the words of the founding fathers plus the Constitution does not support you. Actually, SCOTUS does not have the delegated power in the Constitution to determine constitutionality. It was a power grabbed in Marbury v. Madison and has been there ever since. The Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions are still part of Virginia and Kentucky law. They have not been overturned by any court whatsoever. However, it still doesn't change the fact that James Madison and Thomas Jefferson both stated that the United States is a compact of states born out by Article VII Clause I as it plainly says, "between the states." Therefore, under the Supremacy Clause the federal government cannot tell the states what to do nor does it alter the fact that it is a compact of states that the states entered into. No matter how much you wish it to be the opposite the fact of the matter is that Justice Strong is wrong and so are you. I'll take James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and Alexander Hamilton for the win Alex. Here are more quotes for you to enjoy by the true founding fathers not some two bit politcal hack justice.

    In the first place, there is not a syllable in the plan under consideration which directly empowers the national courts to construe the laws according to the spirit of the Constitution, or which gives them any greater latitude in this respect than may be claimed by the courts of every State. — Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 81

    The State governments possess inherent advantages, which will ever give them an influence and ascendancy over the National Government, and will for ever preclude the possibility of federal encroachments. That their liberties, indeed, can be subverted by the federal head, is repugnant to every rule of political calculation. — Alexander Hamilton

    This balance between the National and State governments ought to be dwelt on with peculiar attention, as it is of the utmost importance. It forms a double security to the people. If one encroaches on their rights they will find a powerful protection in the other. Indeed, they will both be prevented from overpassing their constitutional limits by a certain rivalship, which will ever subsist between them. — Alexander Hamilton

    Each State, in ratifying the Constitution, is considered as a sovereign body, independent of all others, and only to be bound by its own voluntary act. In this relation, then, the new Constitution will, if established, be a FEDERAL, and not a NATIONAL constitution. — James Madison, Federalist No. 39 (emphasis in the original)


    Your view presupposes that it was the federal government that created the states and is overlord over them. My view is that the states created the federal government and is overlord of the federal government. This is what it boils down to.
    I've read your post. I don't see anything here that I have not refuted either in this thread, or in another one that we discussed Constitutional issues: http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...e-race-12.html Part of your problem is that you deny that SCOTUS can make determinations of Constitutional meaning. This has been firmly established in Federalist 81:
    A constitution is, in fact, and must be regarded by the judges, as a fundamental law. It, therefore, belongs to them to ascertain its meaning, as well as the meaning of any particular act proceeding from the legislative body.
    There is also plenty of information from both Hamilton and Madison that the Constitution was written with the idea that it did NOT compile each and every situation, allowing for the necessity of Constitutional determination. All of this indicates that SCOTUS certainly can make determinations. I have demonstrated my position with case law and the Constitution itself. Nullification cannot occur. This makes the federal government having power over the states.
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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
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  2. #62
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I've read your post. I don't see anything here that I have not refuted either in this thread, or in another one that we discussed Constitutional issues: http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...e-race-12.html Part of your problem is that you deny that SCOTUS can make determinations of Constitutional meaning. This has been firmly established in Federalist 81: There is also plenty of information from both Hamilton and Madison that the Constitution was written with the idea that it did NOT compile each and every situation, allowing for the necessity of Constitutional determination. All of this indicates that SCOTUS certainly can make determinations. I have demonstrated my position with case law and the Constitution itself. Nullification cannot occur. This makes the federal government having power over the states.
    And James Madison and Thomas Jefferson trump you and the Supreme Court. I'll put your reply down as an appeal to authority logical fallacy.

  3. #63
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    And James Madison and Thomas Jefferson trump you and the Supreme Court. I'll put your reply down as an appeal to authority logical fallacy.
    And Hamilton and Madison trump anything you've said. And I've already explained to you that you do not understand the appeal to authority logical fallacy and that you are using it incorrectly. I've done this several times in at least 2 threads. So, you can keep using it, but it is completely invalid. You need to come up with something credible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  4. #64
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Yes, there have been several amendments made that affect states powers, but it doesn't make it necessarily correct. The states created the federal government and nothing can change that or limit the sovereignty held by the states. I'll quote James Madison when it comes to the Supreme Court.


    I follow up with Thomas Jefferson.
    What was true 200 years ago, is not true today. Do you really think that most of the states (especially the majority of the people of those states) would want to dissolve the federal government in this day and age? I'd bet you that most people are more like me, and consider themselves a citizen of the USA first, and their state of residency second. I'd say that is doubly so for many of those who have been in the military and others who have jobs that require mobility and/or residences or family in other states.

    The federal government has done some pretty crappy things against individual rights, but the state governments seem to do even more. Slavery, segregation, sodomy laws, and state amendments against interracial marriage come to mind as some state laws and policies that the federal government had to step in to change one way or another. The most important thing to anyone living here should be individual rights, not who has more power, the state or the federal government.
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  5. #65
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    If the federal government created the states then why did the federal government need permission from the states to ratify the US Constitution? Itís because the states created the federal government.
    'The whole universe is going to die!'

  6. #66
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    Actually, the states do have a choice since they can refuse to implement a federal law and there is nothing the federal government can do about it. Get enough states to resist it and the federal government can do nothing since they do not have the manpower to enforce it.
    From the writings of "The Patriot", who has forgotten about the 60s events and the Civil Rights Law. He has also forgotten about the National Guard...
    If only the states has respect for humans, even the Civil War would not have happened.
    The federal government can cut off federal funding to a state, and has threatened to do it before. There's no legal reason they can't, as I understand it.
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

  7. #67
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    It depends on which state you're talking about.

    Some were the original colonies - staked and defined before the Articles of the Confederation.

    Others were decided by federal government based on physical boundaries (mountains, rivers, lakes, etc).

    Yet in other cases portions of the state were argued for between two states.

    In another state a mistake in land-plotting calculations when they built a fort extended the pre-agreed area of the US into Canada . . . so in this situation it was someone's stupid ****up that defined the state's border.

    Then we have states that were existing on their own (Alaska, Hawaii) and then wanted into our country - purely on deal with the federal government, not the states.

    Of course there are some states that don't even exist anymore - one (at least from what I remember) was proposed in one land-divide plan that was submitted to the government and approval wasn't given - so they weren't formed.

    And so on - every state has it's own story and history and the reason for the shape, location, size and name were up to various people/governments for different reasons.

    Watch "how the states got their shapes" - it's truly fascinating.

    Now - I know that's not what you asked but I digressed at my pleasure, it's my Birthday -

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    Let's be honest here. State governments created the federal government which created more states. But regardless, all power ultimately derives from the people in general. We are the ultimate source of all power in any political system, and it is by our consent that either state or federal government have the powers they do.
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

  8. #68
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I've read your post. I don't see anything here that I have not refuted either in this thread, or in another one that we discussed Constitutional issues: http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...e-race-12.html Part of your problem is that you deny that SCOTUS can make determinations of Constitutional meaning. This has been firmly established in Federalist 81: There is also plenty of information from both Hamilton and Madison that the Constitution was written with the idea that it did NOT compile each and every situation, allowing for the necessity of Constitutional determination. All of this indicates that SCOTUS certainly can make determinations. I have demonstrated my position with case law and the Constitution itself. Nullification cannot occur. This makes the federal government having power over the states.
    Captain - I understand what you are saying. The Fed. gov't has power over the states as per the 14th amendment. But only so far as the 10th amendment. So if it is specified in the constitution, then yes, the federal government has sovereignty on those subjects. If the power is not specifically granted to the federal government by the states in the constitution, then the federal government does not have that power, per the 10th amendment. So the fed. gov't has limited sovereignty. In all other matters beyond the constitution, the states have sovereignty. I would say that this makes the states more powerful because 1) there is more outside of the constitution than within and 2) The states can change the constitution.

  9. #69
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertz View Post
    Captain - I understand what you are saying. The Fed. gov't has power over the states as per the 14th amendment. But only so far as the 10th amendment. So if it is specified in the constitution, then yes, the federal government has sovereignty on those subjects. If the power is not specifically granted to the federal government by the states in the constitution, then the federal government does not have that power, per the 10th amendment. So the fed. gov't has limited sovereignty. In all other matters beyond the constitution, the states have sovereignty. I would say that this makes the states more powerful because 1) there is more outside of the constitution than within and 2) The states can change the constitution.
    The issue there is that most authorities, including the founding fathers, have accepted the concept of implied rights- rights that the constitution grants even though it doesn't expressly spell them out, so it can be difficult to decide where to apply the 10th
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

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