View Poll Results: Dind The Federal Govt create the states, or states create federal govt

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  • The federal government created the states

    2 5.13%
  • The states created the federal government

    31 79.49%
  • Other

    6 15.38%
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Thread: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal Gov

  1. #51
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    The original thirteen states predated the Constitution, therefore the Fedgov was obviously created by the States, and the States acting collectively (2/3rd majority required) may dissolve the existing Federal government at their whim.... theoretically.

    As with many things, the theoretical and the pragmatic are often two very different things.

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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    I hate to tell you this, but the states are already their own countries. See the Treaty of Paris of 1783 where King George gave up all claims to the colonies. His representatives had to sign thirteen treaties; one for each colony. However, if the states en-mass leave the union there is nothing the federal government can do since its operation requires the consent of a minimum of 9 states. If 42 states leave the union, the the federal government ceases to exist and there is nothing that it can do.

    The rest is a red herring.
    Is this how conservatives "think" and reason ?
    A little knowledge is a dangerous thing..
    The "United States", as an entity, did not come into being until a few years later.
    Luckily, most of the states have leadership that is sane.

  3. #53
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    Is this how conservatives "think" and reason ?
    A little knowledge is a dangerous thing..
    The "United States", as an entity, did not come into being until a few years later.
    Luckily, most of the states have leadership that is sane.
    Attack the argument not the poster. Can you refute anything I've said? No, because it is a matter of historical record.

  4. #54
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    You're also a citizen of North Carolina. This is why there are residency and voting requirements, since you are a citizen of your state. United States citizen was invented when the 14th Amendment was ratified and did not exist beforehand. Actually, you do send representatives to Congress, which is an international organization comprising the 50 states. We have still been separate countries even today. This is why there are 51 Constitutions, 51 sets of Civil Law, and 51 sets of Criminal Law. If you commit a crime or face a civil suit within state boundaries you are subject to state law. If you commit a crime or face a civil suit on federal property like buildings, territories, and possessions then you face federal law.
    But residency can change overnight, literally. All you need to do is start residing in a different state. This would only affect voting if you are not within the time limits to register to vote for that state. In fact, you can live in another country and still maintain US citizenship, without being a citizen of any particular state. The residents of Washington, D. C. are not actually citizens of any state, but are US citizens.

    US citizenship does exist now. Most, if any, of the founding fathers could not have predicted that we would live in a world where a person could move completely across the country in less than half a day, considering in their time it took half a day at least to cross most states by themselves. They also could not have predicted that the world itself would be able to communicate with other countries almost instantaneously. What the founding fathers did do is assume that the world would probably change with time, and without being able to predict what those changes would be exactly, they allowed an avenue for provisions of the Constitution to be changed, if needed, with the times.

    One of the changes that has occurred is that the federal government has been given more powers. Sometimes this is a bad thing, and sometimes it is good, but it really depends on the person. The states and the people within them have not always been willing to accept some of the provisions of the federal government, but were forced to do so anyway. In recent times, the states, for the most part, have given up much of their power to the federal government rather peacefully, especially in matters where the SCOTUS has ruled the state laws as unconstitutional, such as the change in all state laws regarding interracial marriage after the ruling of Loving v. Virginia, despite many states having Constitutional provisions against interracial marriage.
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    But residency can change overnight, literally. All you need to do is start residing in a different state. This would only affect voting if you are not within the time limits to register to vote for that state. In fact, you can live in another country and still maintain US citizenship, without being a citizen of any particular state. The residents of Washington, D. C. are not actually citizens of any state, but are US citizens.

    US citizenship does exist now. Most, if any, of the founding fathers could not have predicted that we would live in a world where a person could move completely across the country in less than half a day, considering in their time it took half a day at least to cross most states by themselves. They also could not have predicted that the world itself would be able to communicate with other countries almost instantaneously. What the founding fathers did do is assume that the world would probably change with time, and without being able to predict what those changes would be exactly, they allowed an avenue for provisions of the Constitution to be changed, if needed, with the times.

    One of the changes that has occurred is that the federal government has been given more powers. Sometimes this is a bad thing, and sometimes it is good, but it really depends on the person. The states and the people within them have not always been willing to accept some of the provisions of the federal government, but were forced to do so anyway. In recent times, the states, for the most part, have given up much of their power to the federal government rather peacefully, especially in matters where the SCOTUS has ruled the state laws as unconstitutional, such as the change in all state laws regarding interracial marriage after the ruling of Loving v. Virginia, despite many states having Constitutional provisions against interracial marriage.
    In most states the residency requirement is 90 days or more. As far as the founding fathers are concerned, they did predict quite a lot of things about what the future would hold. Technological innovation was one of them. They saw rapid advances in technology in their lifetime, like the rifling of barrels and start of mass production plus the invention of the hot air balloon, trains, etc... The Amendment process hasn't been used much in regards to changing the government's role.

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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    In most states the residency requirement is 90 days or more. As far as the founding fathers are concerned, they did predict quite a lot of things about what the future would hold. Technological innovation was one of them. They saw rapid advances in technology in their lifetime, like the rifling of barrels and start of mass production plus the invention of the hot air balloon, trains, etc... The Amendment process hasn't been used much in regards to changing the government's role.
    There have been several Amendments made that affect the states' powers vs. that of the federal government. I count at least six, if you don't include the prohibition of alcohol and its repeal. And there have been many, many SCOTUS rulings that do so. Many of those rulings have yet to be challenged, and in fact, come more often than rulings more in favor of states' powers. More and more the SCOTUS rules in favor of the federal government or a private citizen over a state, including decisions of Loving v. Virginia and Lawrence v. Texas.

    As my husband reminded me, before the Civil War, the US in conversation was referred to as "the United States are", after the Civil War and to this day, the US is referred to as "the United States is".
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  7. #57
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Aunt Spiker, I spent some time looking for that quote and I found it. It's from the Northwest Ordinance of 1787 and was repassed into law in 1790 by the Congress of the United States under the Constitution of the United States. Article V of the Northwest Ordinance states, "And, whenever any of the said States shall have sixty thousand free inhabitants therein, such State shall be admitted, by its delegates, into the Congress of the United States, on an equal footing with the original States in all respects whatever, and shall be at liberty to form a permanent constitution and State government: Provided, the constitution and government so to be formed, shall be republican, and in conformity to the principles contained in these articles; and, so far as it can be consistent with the general interest of the confederacy, such admission shall be allowed at an earlier period, and when there may be a less number of free inhabitants in the State than sixty thousand."

    I'm sorry for the delay in finding it, but going through all this documentation takes time.
    Thanks for finding it - I often give up on extensive searches like that. the net is handy for a headache, sometimes

    It's good that they wanted to value all states as being equal - imagine if they didn't? If they didn't they I suppose new states would be more akin to territories rather than a full functioning state.
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Thanks for finding it - I often give up on extensive searches like that. the net is handy for a headache, sometimes

    It's good that they wanted to value all states as being equal - imagine if they didn't? If they didn't they I suppose new states would be more akin to territories rather than a full functioning state.
    You're most welcome and it can be a headache for sure.

    It would be pretty terrible to contemplate if the new states were placed lower then the original states.

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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    You're most welcome and it can be a headache for sure.

    It would be pretty terrible to contemplate if the new states were placed lower then the original states.
    Or higher in some sort of favoritism for land-trade deal.

    Now - this borders on a different subject - creating Charter cities to revitalize a failing economy - in essence - it would be designating an area of your country to be run with altered regulations to promote economic growth.

    I can imagine that having states with different rights and which lack equality might be good - more likely to be bad - but could be good depending on how different they were.
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    There have been several Amendments made that affect the states' powers vs. that of the federal government. I count at least six, if you don't include the prohibition of alcohol and its repeal. And there have been many, many SCOTUS rulings that do so. Many of those rulings have yet to be challenged, and in fact, come more often than rulings more in favor of states' powers. More and more the SCOTUS rules in favor of the federal government or a private citizen over a state, including decisions of Loving v. Virginia and Lawrence v. Texas.

    As my husband reminded me, before the Civil War, the US in conversation was referred to as "the United States are", after the Civil War and to this day, the US is referred to as "the United States is".
    Yes, there have been several amendments made that affect states powers, but it doesn't make it necessarily correct. The states created the federal government and nothing can change that or limit the sovereignty held by the states. I'll quote James Madison when it comes to the Supreme Court.
    That this Assembly doth explicitly and peremptorily declare, that it views the powers of the federal government, as resulting from the compact, to which the states are parties; as limited by the plain sense and intention of the instrument constituting the compact; as no further valid that they are authorized by the grants enumerated in that compact; and that in case of a deliberate, palpable, and dangerous exercise of other powers, not granted by the said compact, the states who are parties thereto, have the right, and are in duty bound, to interpose for arresting the progress of the evil, and for maintaining within their respective limits, the authorities, rights and liberties appertaining to them.
    I follow up with Thomas Jefferson.

    "The Constitution... meant that its coordinate branches should be checks on each other. But the opinion which gives to the judges the right to decide what laws are constitutional and what not, not only for themselves in their own sphere of action but for the Legislature and Executive also in their spheres, would make the Judiciary a despotic branch." --Thomas Jefferson to Abigail Adams, 1804. ME 11:51

    "To consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions [is] a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy. Our judges are as honest as other men and not more so. They have with others the same passions for party, for power, and the privilege of their corps. Their maxim is boni judicis est ampliare jurisdictionem [good justice is broad jurisdiction], and their power the more dangerous as they are in office for life and not responsible, as the other functionaries are, to the elective control. The Constitution has erected no such single tribunal, knowing that to whatever hands confided, with the corruptions of time and party, its members would become despots. It has more wisely made all the departments co-equal and co-sovereign within themselves." --Thomas Jefferson to William C. Jarvis, 1820. ME 15:277

    "In denying the right [the Supreme Court usurps] of exclusively explaining the Constitution, I go further than [others] do, if I understand rightly [this] quotation from the Federalist of an opinion that 'the judiciary is the last resort in relation to the other departments of the government, but not in relation to the rights of the parties to the compact under which the judiciary is derived.' If this opinion be sound, then indeed is our Constitution a complete felo de se [act of suicide]. For intending to establish three departments, coordinate and independent, that they might check and balance one another, it has given, according to this opinion, to one of them alone the right to prescribe rules for the government of the others, and to that one, too, which is unelected by and independent of the nation. For experience has already shown that the impeachment it has provided is not even a scare-crow... The Constitution on this hypothesis is a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form they please." --Thomas Jefferson to Spencer Roane, 1819. ME 15:212

    "This member of the Government was at first considered as the most harmless and helpless of all its organs. But it has proved that the power of declaring what the law is, ad libitum, by sapping and mining slyly and without alarm the foundations of the Constitution, can do what open force would not dare to attempt." --Thomas Jefferson to Edward Livingston, 1825. ME 16:114

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