View Poll Results: Dind The Federal Govt create the states, or states create federal govt

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  • The federal government created the states

    2 5.13%
  • The states created the federal government

    31 79.49%
  • Other

    6 15.38%
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Thread: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal Gov

  1. #41
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It would require every state to do so, which will never happen. I'm not missing your point, I just disagree with it. I understand that it is possible, but because of those pratical and logistical concerns, it won't happen. What is the point in doing something that will pretty much ensure harm to most of the people? The only people who would benefit are those who want anarchy.

    This seems like a loaded question that tries to imply that since the states made the federal government (which isn't completely true), then the states have the power. If having the power to dissolve the federal government leads to a lot bigger problems for your state and especially for the people, then how is that actually power? It's like having nuclear weapons, sure we can use them, but we screw ourselves over by doing so. So it would take someone who has no vested interest in the well being of the majority of the people to dissolve the federal government.

    And honestly, I doubt that even if every state governments did agree to dissolve the US government, that it would honestly hold up, unless the vast majority of the people of all the states actually agreed to it as well. The people are the enforcers of federal policies and laws. So if the federal government decided to still try to uphold federal laws within the states, then it would depend on whether or not the people were willing to still obey those laws and whether or not those federal employees who are entrusted with enforcing the federal laws obey their superiors. It would be near impossible to completely dissolve the federal government so easily.
    You'd be incorrect since the states ratified the Constitution singly they can nullify it singly. It doesn't require the consent of the other states now like it didn't require the consent of the other states then.

  2. #42
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Sovereignty of the states was never surrendered to the federal government. Here's proof from Missouri's Constitution.

    Section 4. That Missouri is a free and independent state, subject only to the Constitution of the United States; that all proposed amendments to the Constitution of the United States qualifying or affecting the individual liberties of the people or which in any wise may impair the right of local self-government belonging to the people of this state, should be submitted to conventions of the people.
    This only states that any constitutional amendment be discussed and ratified or rejected by that state. But I do not remember if this is a 3/4 majotrity or 100%....
    As proven by the events of the civil war, states and people can be very pig-headed.

  3. #43
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    This only states that any constitutional amendment be discussed and ratified or rejected by that state. But I do not remember if this is a 3/4 majotrity or 100%....
    As proven by the events of the civil war, states and people can be very pig-headed.
    It states that Missouri is a free and independent state, subject only to the Constitution of the United States in the prohibitions towards the states and the delegation of powers in the Constitution. All other powers are retained by Missouri.

  4. #44
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    You'd be incorrect since the states ratified the Constitution singly they can nullify it singly. It doesn't require the consent of the other states now like it didn't require the consent of the other states then.
    Except, they wouldn't be able to be their own country, especially those who are landlocked by the other states. Even if they aren't, there would be serious logistical and practical issues involved with trying to nullify or even just secede from the United States. And, we know that the US government does consider it within their power to stop such an act, since they fought the Civil War to prevent the South from seceding.

    You might have a chance of actually dissolving the US federal government if you had all or even most of the states (and their people), agreeing to do so. However, if it is only one state or just a few states, then it is more likely that those states trying to do so would be laughed at. It may lead to war, and if they won, although unlikely, they might be able to start their own country/countries outside the US, but they couldn't really dissolve the US government as a whole without a lot of force if the other states are not agreeing to it. But it would all still depend on how the people felt about such an act, not just the governments or even most of the people of a state or group of states.
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  5. #45
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Except, they wouldn't be able to be their own country, especially those who are landlocked by the other states. Even if they aren't, there would be serious logistical and practical issues involved with trying to nullify or even just secede from the United States. And, we know that the US government does consider it within their power to stop such an act, since they fought the Civil War to prevent the South from seceding.

    You might have a chance of actually dissolving the US federal government if you had all or even most of the states (and their people), agreeing to do so. However, if it is only one state or just a few states, then it is more likely that those states trying to do so would be laughed at. It may lead to war, and if they won, although unlikely, they might be able to start their own country/countries outside the US, but they couldn't really dissolve the US government as a whole without a lot of force if the other states are not agreeing to it. But it would all still depend on how the people felt about such an act, not just the governments or even most of the people of a state or group of states.
    I hate to tell you this, but the states are already their own countries. See the Treaty of Paris of 1783 where King George gave up all claims to the colonies. His representatives had to sign thirteen treaties; one for each colony. However, if the states enmass leave the union there is nothing the federal government can do since its operation requires the consent of a minimum of 9 states. If 42 states leave the union, the the federal government ceases to exist and there is nothing that it can do.

    The rest is a red herring.

  6. #46
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    I hate to tell you this, but the states are already their own countries. See the Treaty of Paris of 1783 where King George gave up all claims to the colonies. His representatives had to sign thirteen treaties; one for each colony. However, if the states enmass leave the union there is nothing the federal government can do since its operation requires the consent of a minimum of 9 states. If 42 states leave the union, the the federal government ceases to exist and there is nothing that it can do.

    The rest is a red herring.
    Not in reality. I may live in NC, but I am a US citizen. A person has a passport from the United States, not the state in which they reside. We do not send representatives from all 50 states to international conferences and/or peace talks. We haven't been separate little countries since we actually formed the federal government.

    As I said, most of the states banning together could probably succeed in dissolving the US. One state would most likely not succeed. Even up to half of the states together would have a hard time doing so.

    Those 42 states would have to have the complete backing of the majority of their people to do so, which isn't very likely to happen. Most Americans consider themselves American citizens first, and citizens of the state in which they reside second, if they consider it at all. Many Americans, especially people who have lived in several different states, don't consider their citizenship of the state in which they reside at all. They just consider it the place where they live. Some people even pay taxes, work, and own residences in several states. Most families live in separate states. It is highly unlikely that you would get the majority of people in 42 states to agree to dissolving the federal government.
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  7. #47
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Not in reality. I may live in NC, but I am a US citizen. A person has a passport from the United States, not the state in which they reside. We do not send representatives from all 50 states to international conferences and/or peace talks. We haven't been separate little countries since we actually formed the federal government.

    As I said, most of the states banning together could probably succeed in dissolving the US. One state would most likely not succeed. Even up to half of the states together would have a hard time doing so.

    Those 42 states would have to have the complete backing of the majority of their people to do so, which isn't very likely to happen. Most Americans consider themselves American citizens first, and citizens of the state in which they reside second, if they consider it at all. Many Americans, especially people who have lived in several different states, don't consider their citizenship of the state in which they reside at all. They just consider it the place where they live. Some people even pay taxes, work, and own residences in several states. Most families live in separate states. It is highly unlikely that you would get the majority of people in 42 states to agree to dissolving the federal government.
    You're also a citizen of North Carolina. This is why there are residency and voting requirements, since you are a citizen of your state. United States citizen was invented when the 14th Amendment was ratified and did not exist beforehand. Actually, you do send representatives to Congress, which is an international organization comprising the 50 states. We have still been separate countries even today. This is why there are 51 Constitutions, 51 sets of Civil Law, and 51 sets of Criminal Law. If you commit a crime or face a civil suit within state boundaries you are subject to state law. If you commit a crime or face a civil suit on federal property like buildings, territories, and possessions then you face federal law.

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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Actually, the states do have a choice since they can refuse to implement a federal law and there is nothing the federal government can do about it. Get enough states to resist it and the federal government can do nothing since they do not have the manpower to enforce it.
    From the writings of "The Patriot", who has forgotten about the 60s events and the Civil Rights Law. He has also forgotten about the National Guard...
    If only the states has respect for humans, even the Civil War would not have happened.

  9. #49
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    Actually, the states do have a choice since they can refuse to implement a federal law and there is nothing the federal government can do about it. Get enough states to resist it and the federal government can do nothing since they do not have the manpower to enforce it.
    From the writings of "The Patriot", who has forgotten about the 60s events and the Civil Rights Law. He has also forgotten about the National Guard...
    If only the states has respect for humans, even the Civil War would not have happened.
    Logical fallacies abound in this. I didn't forget about the 60's nor the civil rights movement. I also haven't forgotten about the National Guard, a federal occupation army. Are you saying that the federal government has respect for humans? That's a laugh because look at the genocide of the American Indians and other human rights abuses commited by the federal government.

  10. #50
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Thank you!


    Isn't it interesting how things were divied up back then?

    Still - did the states create of the federal government, or vise versa?

    Honestly - that still depends on the existance of the states and why/when it came to be. Surely not *all* the states were even around so of course many had no relation to the federal government. At the time of the Articles of the Confederation there was a minimal fed government - and a semi-coagulated country to boot. So, the states jump-started the federal government, but limited it's powers. Things evolved, Shay's Rebellion among other things spawned the necessity for a stronger federal government. . . things progressed in that direction almost naturally.

    Of course if the state's elected officials et al didn't come together and agree on a new government blueprint things wouldn't exist as they are, today. The states had to agree (almost all did) on the Constitution and Ratify it. Everyone had to be on board.

    So - some states created the government - yes.
    But the government created some states and granted them 'full statehood' for a variety of reasons.
    Aunt Spiker, I spent some time looking for that quote and I found it. It's from the Northwest Ordinance of 1787 and was repassed into law in 1790 by the Congress of the United States under the Constitution of the United States. Article V of the Northwest Ordinance states, "And, whenever any of the said States shall have sixty thousand free inhabitants therein, such State shall be admitted, by its delegates, into the Congress of the United States, on an equal footing with the original States in all respects whatever, and shall be at liberty to form a permanent constitution and State government: Provided, the constitution and government so to be formed, shall be republican, and in conformity to the principles contained in these articles; and, so far as it can be consistent with the general interest of the confederacy, such admission shall be allowed at an earlier period, and when there may be a less number of free inhabitants in the State than sixty thousand."

    I'm sorry for the delay in finding it, but going through all this documentation takes time.

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