View Poll Results: Dind The Federal Govt create the states, or states create federal govt

Voters
39. You may not vote on this poll
  • The federal government created the states

    2 5.13%
  • The states created the federal government

    31 79.49%
  • Other

    6 15.38%
Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 69

Thread: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal Gov

  1. #31
    Global Moderator
    Rage More!
    Your Star's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Georgia
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    26,362

    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    To answer the OP. Neither, the people created both.

  2. #32
    Global Moderator
    I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

    CaptainCourtesy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 07:54 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    152,759

    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    First off Justice Strong is wrong and contradicts what James Madison, the author of the Constitution. Madison states in the Virginia Resolution of 1798, "That this Assembly doth explicitly and peremptorily declare, that it views the powers of the federal government, as resulting from the compact, to which the states are parties; as limited by the plain sense and intention of the instrument constituting the compact; as no further valid that they are authorized by the grants enumerated in that compact; and that in case of a deliberate, palpable, and dangerous exercise of other powers, not granted by the said compact, the states who are parties thereto, have the right, and are in duty bound, to interpose for arresting the progress of the evil, and for maintaining within their respective limits, the authorities, rights and liberties appertaining to them."

    Justice Strong was a firm believer in a strong central government and in his ruling ignored the text of the Constitution and the writings of the founding fathers. He also served on the Supreme Court almost one hundred years after the Constitution was ratified. I would consider him to be a secondary source and not a primary therefore he is invalid under the appeal to authority logical fallacy. Use a founding father next time to support your position. Also, your cite of the Supremacy Clause states that the Constitution of the United States is supreme and that is not in disagreement. The Constitution of the United States makes it clear that the federal government cannot pass laws that affect inside of the borders of the states. Therefore, your cite of the Supremacy Clause only reinforces my argument not yours. You were saying about destroying my position?
    It is the job of SCOTUS to apply the Constitution to situations that arise. Hamilton, Madison, and Marshall all affirmed this in a variety of ways. Both the Supremacy Clause and the 14th Amendment have validated my position, as have a whole host of case law throughout the centuries. You have offered nothing to back your position. The test of a position is does it stand up over time, under a variety of circumstances. This is how things get validated. My position fulfills this test. Yours does not.

    Also, the Virginia Resolution of 1798 is not part of the Constitution and was nothing but a resolution by Virginia in regards to the Alien and Sedition Acts... Acts that were allowed to lapse in 1801 and would most certainly been declared unconstitutional under the 1st Amendment. This voids your argument using the Virginia Resolution, since it fought something that was unconstitutional anyway.

    No, I have cited the Constitution and backed it with centuries of case law. You have produced nil.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  3. #33
    Professor
    The_Patriot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Last Seen
    02-06-12 @ 06:25 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    1,488

    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    It is the job of SCOTUS to apply the Constitution to situations that arise. Hamilton, Madison, and Marshall all affirmed this in a variety of ways. Both the Supremacy Clause and the 14th Amendment have validated my position, as have a whole host of case law throughout the centuries. You have offered nothing to back your position. The test of a position is does it stand up over time, under a variety of circumstances. This is how things get validated. My position fulfills this test. Yours does not.

    Also, the Virginia Resolution of 1798 is not part of the Constitution and was nothing but a resolution by Virginia in regards to the Alien and Sedition Acts... Acts that were allowed to lapse in 1801 and would most certainly been declared unconstitutional under the 1st Amendment. This voids your argument using the Virginia Resolution, since it fought something that was unconstitutional anyway.

    No, I have cited the Constitution and backed it with centuries of case law. You have produced nil.
    In short, you have to rely upon someone that ruled on an issue that was not a founding father and the words of the founding fathers plus the Constitution does not support you. Actually, SCOTUS does not have the delegated power in the Constitution to determine constitutionality. It was a power grabbed in Marbury v. Madison and has been there ever since. The Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions are still part of Virginia and Kentucky law. They have not been overturned by any court whatsoever. However, it still doesn't change the fact that James Madison and Thomas Jefferson both stated that the United States is a compact of states born out by Article VII Clause I as it plainly says, "between the states." Therefore, under the Supremacy Clause the federal government cannot tell the states what to do nor does it alter the fact that it is a compact of states that the states entered into. No matter how much you wish it to be the opposite the fact of the matter is that Justice Strong is wrong and so are you. I'll take James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and Alexander Hamilton for the win Alex. Here are more quotes for you to enjoy by the true founding fathers not some two bit politcal hack justice.

    In the first place, there is not a syllable in the plan under consideration which directly empowers the national courts to construe the laws according to the spirit of the Constitution, or which gives them any greater latitude in this respect than may be claimed by the courts of every State. — Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 81

    The State governments possess inherent advantages, which will ever give them an influence and ascendancy over the National Government, and will for ever preclude the possibility of federal encroachments. That their liberties, indeed, can be subverted by the federal head, is repugnant to every rule of political calculation. — Alexander Hamilton

    This balance between the National and State governments ought to be dwelt on with peculiar attention, as it is of the utmost importance. It forms a double security to the people. If one encroaches on their rights they will find a powerful protection in the other. Indeed, they will both be prevented from overpassing their constitutional limits by a certain rivalship, which will ever subsist between them. — Alexander Hamilton

    Each State, in ratifying the Constitution, is considered as a sovereign body, independent of all others, and only to be bound by its own voluntary act. In this relation, then, the new Constitution will, if established, be a FEDERAL, and not a NATIONAL constitution. — James Madison, Federalist No. 39 (emphasis in the original)


    Your view presupposes that it was the federal government that created the states and is overlord over them. My view is that the states created the federal government and is overlord of the federal government. This is what it boils down to.
    Last edited by The_Patriot; 07-20-10 at 05:44 AM.

  4. #34
    Sage
    Ikari's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 01:05 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    54,124

    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal Government?

    A simple question to stimulate discussion.

    I believe that the states created the federal government and the federal government should listen to the states.

    Edit: Forgot the poll so I apologize. The answers in the poll would have been Yes (Explain), No (Explain), and Other (Explain.
    Neither, the People created both.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  5. #35
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Seen
    03-22-15 @ 02:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    17,343

    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    No offense, but isnt this a pretty silly question?

    The states created the federal govenment; the federal government exists at the pleasure of the states. The states may dissolve the federal government any time they should choose to do so with the federal govermne thaving no legal mechanism to stop them; the federal government may not ever do any such thing to the states w/o their consent.

  6. #36
    Cheese
    Aunt Spiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Sasnakra
    Last Seen
    09-10-16 @ 06:10 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    28,433

    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    No offense, but isnt this a pretty silly question?

    The states created the federal govenment; the federal government exists at the pleasure of the states. The states may dissolve the federal government any time they should choose to do so with the federal govermne thaving no legal mechanism to stop them; the federal government may not ever do any such thing to the states w/o their consent.
    No, I don't think it's a silly discussion to have - he wasn't asking out of "i have no clue" . . . he started it to generate thoughts and conversation.
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
    Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow

  7. #37
    Sage
    roguenuke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:17 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    29,023

    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    No offense, but isnt this a pretty silly question?

    The states created the federal govenment; the federal government exists at the pleasure of the states. The states may dissolve the federal government any time they should choose to do so with the federal govermne thaving no legal mechanism to stop them; the federal government may not ever do any such thing to the states w/o their consent.
    Actually, the people of the states created the federal government. There are a lot of people who consider themselves US citizens and residents of the state they live in. I know a lot of military personnel who feel this way. I highly doubt that any state could get away with trying to dissolve the US. In fact, I'd say that the Civil War was an attempt to break up the Union into two separate governments which was cemented that once a state is in the Union, it cannot get out.

    Besides, there are a lot of logistical problems with either separating a state from the US or completely dissolving the federal government. What would be the currency of the states? Who decides this? What about people who consider themselves a US citizen, not connected really to any state? How about citizenship? It is highly improbable that any of the states could actually survive as their own country outside of the US. The states and the people of those states are too interconnected with each other in this day and age.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  8. #38
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Seen
    03-22-15 @ 02:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    17,343

    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Actually, the people of the states created the federal government. There are a lot of people who consider themselves US citizens and residents of the state they live in. I know a lot of military personnel who feel this way. I highly doubt that any state could get away with trying to dissolve the US. In fact, I'd say that the Civil War was an attempt to break up the Union into two separate governments which was cemented that once a state is in the Union, it cannot get out.
    You're missing the point.
    Practical and logistical considerations aside, the states can pass an amendment that renders the Constution null and void. At that point, the federal government ceases to exist; the federal governmen thas no legal means to stop the states from doing this.

  9. #39
    Sage
    roguenuke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:17 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    29,023

    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You're missing the point.
    Practical and logistical considerations aside, the states can pass an amendment that renders the Constution null and void. At that point, the federal government ceases to exist; the federal governmen thas no legal means to stop the states from doing this.
    It would require every state to do so, which will never happen. I'm not missing your point, I just disagree with it. I understand that it is possible, but because of those pratical and logistical concerns, it won't happen. What is the point in doing something that will pretty much ensure harm to most of the people? The only people who would benefit are those who want anarchy.

    This seems like a loaded question that tries to imply that since the states made the federal government (which isn't completely true), then the states have the power. If having the power to dissolve the federal government leads to a lot bigger problems for your state and especially for the people, then how is that actually power? It's like having nuclear weapons, sure we can use them, but we screw ourselves over by doing so. So it would take someone who has no vested interest in the well being of the majority of the people to dissolve the federal government.

    And honestly, I doubt that even if every state governments did agree to dissolve the US government, that it would honestly hold up, unless the vast majority of the people of all the states actually agreed to it as well. The people are the enforcers of federal policies and laws. So if the federal government decided to still try to uphold federal laws within the states, then it would depend on whether or not the people were willing to still obey those laws and whether or not those federal employees who are entrusted with enforcing the federal laws obey their superiors. It would be near impossible to completely dissolve the federal government so easily.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  10. #40
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Seen
    03-22-15 @ 02:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    17,343

    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It would require every state to do so, which will never happen.
    No, just 3/4ths.
    The fact that it may not happen in no way invalidates my point.

    This seems like a loaded question that tries to imply that since the states made the federal government (which isn't completely true), then the states have the power.
    Ultimately, they do. They can dissolve the federal governmnet, they can remove power from the federal government, they can restrict the federal government, they can even free themselves from federal restrictions -- all w/o the federal government having any legal ability to stop them.

    And honestly, I doubt that even if every state governments did agree to dissolve the US government, that it would honestly hold up, unless the vast majority of the people of all the states actually agreed to it as well.
    Given the amendment process, it is likely that this would be the case as states rarely, if ever ratify amendments that are are not popular with the people of the state.

    The people are the enforcers of federal policies and laws. So if the federal government decided to still try to uphold federal laws within the states, then it would depend on whether or not the people were willing to still obey those laws and whether or not those federal employees who are entrusted with enforcing the federal laws obey their superiors.
    If the federal government is dissolved, then anyone acting in thename of the federal government is doing so w/o any legal authority. Orders from these people have no legal force; any force they might use would likely be in violation of state law, making them subject to arrest and prosecution.

Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •