View Poll Results: Dind The Federal Govt create the states, or states create federal govt

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  • The federal government created the states

    2 5.13%
  • The states created the federal government

    31 79.49%
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Thread: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal Gov

  1. #21
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Your question does not fit a yes or no answer, how about these for poll options:

    The federal government created the states
    The states created the federal government
    Other

    If that is OK, I can add the poll options.
    Apparently thus far 100% of those who responded, agreed that the States created the Federal Government.
    Of course as a moderator you have the power to add any "other" option, you might even have suggested Donald Duck.

  2. #22
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    I took the 'other' option. . .which I've addressed: The first states created the federal government, but then the federal government created many more states.
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    The states created the federal government. As the US is not a confederation, but a republic, and the fact that nullification has been struck down consistently, the federal government has more power than the states.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  4. #24
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    The states created the federal government. As the US is not a confederation, but a republic, and the fact that nullification has been struck down consistently, the federal government has more power than the states.
    If nullification has been struck down consistently then how is that the Real ID Act and other federal legislation has been overturned in the states and not implemented? The US is a federation of states and the founding fathers have stated it many times.

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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    If nullification has been struck down consistently then how is that the Real ID Act and other federal legislation has been overturned in the states and not implemented? The US is a federation of states and the founding fathers have stated it many times.
    The implementation of the Real ID Act has been extended to 2011. Currently, it's constitutionality is being questioned and a potential repeal is in the works. As of now, though several states have stated that they will not implement it, if it is not repealed, they will not have much of a choice.

    Also, I think President Andrew Jackson said it well: "I consider, then, the power to annul a law of the United States, assumed by one State, incompatible with the existence of the Union, contradicted expressly by the letter of the Constitution, unauthorized by its spirit, inconsistent with every principle on which It was founded, and destructive of the great object for which it was formed."
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    The implementation of the Real ID Act has been extended to 2011. Currently, it's constitutionality is being questioned and a potential repeal is in the works. As of now, though several states have stated that they will not implement it, if it is not repealed, they will not have much of a choice.

    Also, I think President Andrew Jackson said it well: "I consider, then, the power to annul a law of the United States, assumed by one State, incompatible with the existence of the Union, contradicted expressly by the letter of the Constitution, unauthorized by its spirit, inconsistent with every principle on which It was founded, and destructive of the great object for which it was formed."
    Actually, the states do have a choice since they can refuse to implement a federal law and there is nothing the federal government can do about it. Get enough states to resist it and the federal government can do nothing since they do not have the manpower to enforce it. There were states like Utah that passed nullification of No Child Left Behind and they haven't complied with federal law.

    I'll trump Andrew "Genocidal Maniac" Jackson with the Constitution. I give you Article I Section VIII Clauses XVII-XVIII, Article IV Section III Clause II, and the Tenth Amendment.

    To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

    To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.


    The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

    Article I Section VIII Clauses XVII-XVIII limits the jurisdiction of where Congress can pass laws to only the territories and possessions owned by the federal government. The federal government does not own the states. Article IV Section III Clause II makes it clear that Congress cannot pass a law, regulation, or rule that prejudices the claim of a state since jurisdiction applies to the states inside of their borders. This is backed up by the fact that every state has their own Constitution, Civil Law, and Criminal Law that is in no way uniform. The only time federal law is used is when something occurs on federal territories, possesions, and buildings. The Tenth Amendment clearly states that if the states are not prohibited by the Constitution then they are free to use the powers they have within their state borders.

  7. #27
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Actually, the states do have a choice since they can refuse to implement a federal law and there is nothing the federal government can do about it. Get enough states to resist it and the federal government can do nothing since they do not have the manpower to enforce it. There were states like Utah that passed nullification of No Child Left Behind and they haven't complied with federal law.

    I'll trump Andrew "Genocidal Maniac" Jackson with the Constitution. I give you Article I Section VIII Clauses XVII-XVIII, Article IV Section III Clause II, and the Tenth Amendment.

    To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

    To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.


    The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

    Article I Section VIII Clauses XVII-XVIII limits the jurisdiction of where Congress can pass laws to only the territories and possessions owned by the federal government. The federal government does not own the states. Article IV Section III Clause II makes it clear that Congress cannot pass a law, regulation, or rule that prejudices the claim of a state since jurisdiction applies to the states inside of their borders. This is backed up by the fact that every state has their own Constitution, Civil Law, and Criminal Law that is in no way uniform. The only time federal law is used is when something occurs on federal territories, possesions, and buildings. The Tenth Amendment clearly states that if the states are not prohibited by the Constitution then they are free to use the powers they have within their state borders.
    Here we go again. You want a list of cases and situations that show that nullification is not constitutional? Jackson stated it in 1832, and he was an avowed Jeffersonian. IN Knox v. Lee, SCOTUS clearly identified the US as NOT a compact, but a government constituted by the people. Justice Strong said, "The Constitution was intended to frame a government as distinguished from a league or compact, a government supreme in some particulars over states and people." SCOTUS remained consistent with this in Cooper v. Aaron. Further, the Supremacy Clause (Article VI Clause 2) covers this quite neatly:
    This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
    The Privileges and Immunities Clause of the 14th Amendment also covers this:
    No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.
    Both of these indicate that laws of the federal government are supreme to the states. EDGAR V. MITE CORP shows this nicely. SCOTUS ruled that, "A state statute is void to the extent that it actually conflicts with a valid Federal statute." EDGAR V. MITE CORP also referenced many other decisions throughout the history of the US that concurred with this decision, as SCOTUS used a lot of precedence towards rendering this decision.

    The Constitution, a former President, and many SCOTUS cases show that nullification is not constitutional.

    Links used in this post:
    http://supreme.justia.com/us/79/457/case.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_Clause
    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...vol=358&page=1
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooper_v._Aaron
    Last edited by CaptainCourtesy; 07-20-10 at 04:10 AM.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  8. #28
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Here we go again. You want a list of cases and situations that show that nullification is not constitutional? Jackson stated it in 1832, and he was an avowed Jeffersonian. IN Knox v. Lee, SCOTUS clearly identified the US as NOT a compact, but a government constituted by the people. Justice Strong said, "The Constitution was intended to frame a government as distinguished from a league or compact, a government supreme in some particulars over states and people." SCOTUS remained consistent with this in Cooper v. Aaron. Further, the Supremacy Clause (Article VI Clause 2) covers this quite neatly:

    The Privileges and Immunities Clause of the 14th Amendment also covers this:

    Both of these indicate that laws of the federal government are supreme to the states. EDGAR V. MITE CORP shows this nicely. SCOTUS ruled that, "A state statute is void to the extent that it actually conflicts with a valid Federal statute." EDGAR V. MITE CORP also referenced many other decisions throughout the history of the US that concurred with this decision, as SCOTUS used a lot of precedence towards rendering this decision.

    The Constitution, a former President, and many SCOTUS cases show that nullification is not constitutional.

    Links used in this post:
    LEGAL TENDER CASES, 79 U. S. 457 :: Volume 79 :: 1870 :: Full Text :: US Supreme Court Cases from Justia & Oyez
    Supremacy Clause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    FindLaw | Cases and Codes
    Cooper v. Aaron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Appeal to authority by citing the Supreme Court instead of an honest discussion. Care to actually form an opinion of your own or do you let the Supreme Court do all of your thinking for you?

  9. #29
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Appeal to authority by citing the Supreme Court instead of an honest discussion. Care to actually form an opinion of your own or do you let the Supreme Court do all of your thinking for you?
    I have presented my position and then backed it with evidence... that's what I posted is called... evidence. You know... the stuff that I post that refutes everything you post. I know you hate when I do that because it renders your position null and void, but it seems to be my job around here to do so.

    By the way, I also cited the Constitution. I know that you only like the parts of it that you agree with, but all parts apply. Now, do you actually have a reasonable rebuttal, or do you plan on conceding?

    And btw, you do not know what the appeal to authority logical fallacy is. SCOTUS IS the authority on Constitutional law. Therefore, the fallacy does not exist in this case. It would if I claimed that Albert Einstein said I was correct, since he is not an authority on the Constitution.

    Checkmate.
    Last edited by CaptainCourtesy; 07-20-10 at 04:31 AM.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  10. #30
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    Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I have presented my position and then backed it with evidence... that's what I posted is called... evidence. You know... the stuff that I post that refutes everything you post. I know you hate when I do that because it renders your position null and void, but it seems to be my job around here to do so.

    By the way, I also cited the Constitution. I know that you only like the parts of it that you agree with, but all parts apply. Now, do you actually have a reasonable rebuttal, or do you plan on conceding?

    And btw, you do not know what the appeal to authority logical fallacy is. SCOTUS IS the authority on Constitutional law. Therefore, the fallacy does not exist in this case. It would if I claimed that Albert Einstein said I was correct, since he is not an authority on the Constitution.

    Checkmate.
    First off Justice Strong is wrong and contradicts what James Madison, the author of the Constitution, said. Madison states in the Virginia Resolution of 1798, "That this Assembly doth explicitly and peremptorily declare, that it views the powers of the federal government, as resulting from the compact, to which the states are parties; as limited by the plain sense and intention of the instrument constituting the compact; as no further valid that they are authorized by the grants enumerated in that compact; and that in case of a deliberate, palpable, and dangerous exercise of other powers, not granted by the said compact, the states who are parties thereto, have the right, and are in duty bound, to interpose for arresting the progress of the evil, and for maintaining within their respective limits, the authorities, rights and liberties appertaining to them."

    James Madison also said in Federalist #43, "And as it is to be appropriated to this use with the consent of the State ceding it; as the State will no doubt provide in the compact for the rights and the consent of the citizens inhabiting it; as the inhabitants will find sufficient inducements of interest to become willing parties to the cession; as they will have had their voice in the election of the government which is to exercise authority over them; as a municipal legislature for local purposes, derived from their own suffrages, will of course be allowed them; and as the authority of the legislature of the State, and of the inhabitants of the ceded part of it, to concur in the cession, will be derived from the whole people of the State in their adoption of the Constitution, every imaginable objection seems to be obviated."

    Wait this is what Thomas Jefferson had to say in the Kentucky Resolution of 1798, "Resolved, That the several States composing, the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their general government; but that, by a compact under the style and title of a Constitution for the United States, and of amendments thereto, they constituted a general government for special purposes — delegated to that government certain definite powers, reserving, each State to itself, the residuary mass of right to their own self-government; and that whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force: that to this compact each State acceded as a State, and is an integral part, its co-States forming, as to itself, the other party: that the government created by this compact was not made the exclusive or final judge of the extent of the powers delegated to itself; since that would have made its discretion, and not the Constitution, the measure of its powers; but that, as in all other cases of compact among powers having no common judge, each party has an equal right to judge for itself, as well of infractions as of the mode and measure of redress."

    I also give you Article VIII Clause I which establishes that the United States is a compact of states, "The Ratification of the Conventions of nine States, shall be sufficient for the Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the Same."

    Thomas Jefferson and James Madison>Justice Strong.

    Justice Strong was a firm believer in a strong central government and in his ruling ignored the text of the Constitution and the writings of the founding fathers. He also served on the Supreme Court almost one hundred years after the Constitution was ratified. I would consider him to be a secondary source and not a primary therefore he is invalid under the appeal to authority logical fallacy. Use a founding father next time to support your position. Also, your cite of the Supremacy Clause states that the Constitution of the United States is supreme and that is not in disagreement. The Constitution of the United States makes it clear that the federal government cannot pass laws that affect inside of the borders of the states. Therefore, your cite of the Supremacy Clause only reinforces my argument not yours. You were saying about destroying my position?
    Last edited by The_Patriot; 07-20-10 at 04:48 AM.

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