View Poll Results: Do You Have The Right To Other People's Property?

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    7 18.42%
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    25 65.79%
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Thread: Do You Have The Right To Other People's Property?

  1. #91
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    Re: Do You Have The Right To Other People's Property?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I'm curious. What do you mean by someone taking another person's property though the use of government? How could that happen?
    Wealth redistribution.
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  2. #92
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    Re: Do You Have The Right To Other People's Property?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post

    Misattribution of the original position I posited in that thread. I asked if being taxed at 90% was slavery. To date no one has been able to reply to that. Again you have nothing of substance to bring forth so I'll ignore your statements regarding the actual point of the thread, but will pay attention to your comments as moderator.
    I'm quite Able to answer .. as I always do to the "class warfare" contingent, who don't realize (after watching Faux News/Hannity for the few years of their adult life) that the battle has already been won by the Rich, and what we have now is the mere beginnings of a Counter war.

    If you tax someone who makes say 50k or less 90%, obviously you have a starving citizen; 'slave' if you will.

    But since we've Already (Ooops!) Had the Rate you profer (and even higher and only a little lower; 70%-94%) for 50 Years as the Top marginal rate without 'slavery', the answer is... 'No'.

    Top US Marginal Income Tax Rates, 1913--2003 (TruthAndPolitics.org)
    Historical rates (married couples, filing jointly)

    Year/ Top Rate%/ Over

    1913 --- 7% 500,000
    1914 --- 7% 500,000
    1915 --- 7% 500,000
    1916 --- 15% 2,000,000
    1917 --- 67% 2,000,000
    1918 --- 77% 1,000,000
    1919 --- 73% 1,000,000
    1920 --- 73% 1,000,000
    1921 --- 73% 1,000,000

    1922 --- 58% 200,000
    1923 --- 43.5% 200,000
    1924 --- 46% 500,000
    1925 --- 25% 100,000
    1926 --- 25% 100,000
    1927 --- 25% 100,000
    1928 --- 25% 100,000
    1929 --- 24% 100,000
    1930 --- 25% 100,000
    1931 --- 25% 100,000
    1932 --- 63% 1,000,000
    1933 --- 63% 1,000,000
    1934 --- 63% 1,000,000
    1935 --- 63% 1,000,000
    1936 --- 79% 5,000,000
    1937 --- 79% 5,000,000
    1938 --- 79% 5,000,000
    1939 --- 79% 5,000,000
    1940 --- 81% 5,000,000
    1941 --- 81% 5,000,000
    1942 --- 88% 200,000
    1943 --- 88% 200,000
    1944--- 94 200,000
    1945 --- 94% 200,000
    1946 --- 86% 200,000
    1947 --- 86% 200,000
    1948 --- 82.% 400,000
    1949 --- 82% 400,000
    1950 --- 84.36% 400,000
    1951 --- 91% 400,000
    1952 --- 92% 400,000
    1953 --- 92% 400,000
    1954 --- 91% 400,000
    1955 --- 91% 400,000
    1956 --- 91% 400,000
    1957 --- 91% 400,000
    1958 --- 91% 400,000
    1959 --- 91% 400,000
    1960 --- 91% 400,000
    1961 --- 91% 400,000
    1962 --- 91% 400,000
    1963 --- 91% 400,000
    1964 --- 77% 400,000
    1965 --- 70% 200,000
    1966 --- 70% 200,000
    1967 --- 70% 200,000
    1968 --- 75.25% 200,000
    1969 --- 77% 200,000
    1970 --- 71.75% 200,000
    1971 --- 70% 60% 200,000
    1972 --- 70% 50 200,000
    1973 --- 70% 50 200,000
    1974 --- 70% 50 200,000
    1975 ----70% 50 200,000
    1976 --- 70% 50 200,000
    1977 --- 70% 50 203,200
    1978 --- 70% 50 203,200
    1979 --- 70% 50 215,400
    1980 --- 70% 50 215,400
    1981 --- 69% 50 215,400

    1982 --- 50% 85,600
    1983 --- 50% 109,400
    1984 --- 50% 162,400
    1985 --- 50 % 169,020
    1986 --- 50 % 175,250
    1987 --- 38.5% 90,000
    1988 --- 28% <8> 29,750 <8>
    1989 --- 28% <8> 30,950 <8>
    1990 --- 28% <8> 32,450 <8>
    1991 --- 31% 82,150
    1992 --- 31% 86,500
    1993 --- 39.6% 89,150
    1994 --- 39.6% 250,000
    1995 --- 39.6% 256,500
    1996 --- 39.6% 263,750
    1997 --- 39.6% 271,050
    1998 --- 39.6% 278,450
    1999 --- 39.6% 283,150
    2000 --- 39.6% 288,350
    2001 --- 39.1% 297,350
    2002 --- 38.6% 307,050
    2003 --- 35% 311,950
    So, as you can see we had high Top marginal rates for 50 of the above 90 years without 'slavery'. Including rates of 84%-94% for 22 years under FDR, Truman, Eisenhower (8), and Kennedy. I just don't remember the Rockefellers hard up either.

    EDIT : The below of course is Not an answer.
    An Answer as I just gave to 'The Patriot' refuting his assertion.
    Last edited by mbig; 07-18-10 at 12:24 AM.
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  3. #93
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    Re: Do You Have The Right To Other People's Property?

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    I'm quite Able to answer .. as I always do to the "class warfare" contingent, who don't realize (after watching Faux News/Hannity for the few years of their adult life) that the battle has already been won by the Rich, and what we have now is the mere beginnings of a Counter war.

    If you tax someone who makes say 50k or less 90%, obviously you have a starving citizen; 'slave' if you will.

    But since we've ALREADY Had the Rate you profer (and even higher and only a little lower; 70%-94%) for 45 Years as the TOP marginal rate without 'slavery', the answer is... No.

    Top US Marginal Income Tax Rates, 1913--2003 (TruthAndPolitics.org)
    So, as you can see we had high Top marginal rates for 45 years without slavery. Including rates of 84%-94% for 21 years under FDR, Truman, Eisenhower (8), and Kennedy. I just don't remember the Rockefellers hard up either.
    we had slavery too in the past

    also many economists note that next year the effective top rate will be the highest in history

    but we do understand you are mad you aren't rich and you want to stick it to those who are.

    does anyone think the 16th amendment would have passed if those who voted for it saw that crap that goes on today?



  4. #94
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    Re: Do You Have The Right To Other People's Property?

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    I'm quite Able to answer .. as I always do to the "class warfare" contingent, who don't realize (after watching Faux News/Hannity for the few years of their adult life) that the battle has already been won by the Rich, and what we have now is the mere beginnings of a Counter war.

    If you tax someone who makes say 50k or less 90%, obviously you have a starving citizen; 'slave' if you will.

    But since we've Already/Ooops Had the Rate you profer (and even higher and only a little lower; 70%-94%) for 50 Years as the Top marginal rate without 'slavery', the answer is... No.

    Top US Marginal Income Tax Rates, 1913--2003 (TruthAndPolitics.org)
    So, as you can see we had high Top marginal rates for 50 of the above 90 years without 'slavery'. Including rates of 84%-94% for 21 years under FDR, Truman, Eisenhower (8), and Kennedy. I just don't remember the Rockefellers hard up either.

    EDIT : The below of course is Not an answer.
    An Answer as I just gave to 'The Patriot' refuting his assertion.
    I believe firmly that a person has the right to the gains of their own industry regardless if they are wealthy or poor. I'm just as much against income taxes as I am against the hidden tax that is inflation, consumption taxes, property taxes, and death taxes.

  5. #95
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    Re: Do You Have The Right To Other People's Property?

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post

    But since we've Already (Ooops!) Had the Rate you profer (and even higher and only a little lower; 70%-94%) for 50 Years as the Top marginal rate without 'slavery', the answer is... 'No'.

    EDIT : The below of course is Not an answer.
    An Answer as I just gave to 'The Patriot' refuting his assertion. [/b]


    What seems to be missing here is that in the years when top marginal rates skyrocketed, the percentage of the population who were paying exhorbitant rates was a very select few. What we currently have is people like my husband and I, who both make barely above median income, paying high rates. Instead of the rich becoming richer, the median are now considered rich.

    The top rate of 77% during WWI was those who made the equivalent of $16 million (in 2007 dollars). The 75% top rate in WWII was for those making the equivalent of $75 million (in 2007 dollars). The 1913 top rate of 7% was for those making the equivalent of $10 million (in 2007 dollars).
    Last edited by lizzie; 07-18-10 at 12:58 AM.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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  6. #96
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    Re: Do You Have The Right To Other People's Property?

    It's what communists and socialists think.

  7. #97
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    Re: Do You Have The Right To Other People's Property?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I'm curious. What do you mean by someone taking another person's property though the use of government? How could that happen?
    An example I can think of is child-support related: when someone owes arreas/support (if the government is garnishing pay) and the government retains the person's property with a lean (whatever the real name is) or their pay (including tax returns and any type of money-winnings like the lottery). . . until you've been paid.

    Example:
    My ex husband is still suppose to pay arrears eventhough he doesn't owe current child support.
    Until he pays what he owes he cannot sell his property and get money for it . . . if he does then the government will garnish his profit and put it towards the arreas.

    Now - is this right? No, not for us in our situation but it might be more 'right' in someone else's situation. I don't agree with this legal-arrangement and am trying to end it - but that's how it stands.

    According to the government my children are entitled to his paycheck, tax returns and any and all other monies.
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  8. #98
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    Re: Do You Have The Right To Other People's Property?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    A simple question. Do you have the right to other people's property and to enforce the taking of it through the use of the government?
    This ability to answer this depends entirely on what the social contract one engages in is.

    First, we have to denote here that this question exists within a vacuum that there IS a government of sorts, which immedietely demands a social contract. It is not a situation "in the wild" where one person is taking from another person and there is no law or legality of any sort, nor civilization or society.

    So, with that in mind, it depends on what the terms of the contract is that the individual has entered into by being a member of that society.

    For example if you're within a governmental structure where there is a King and the societal understanding is that the King can have his men take anything from anyone at anytime for any reason then yes, in that case the King could have the "right" to have the government take from another to give to him he wishes.

    In another example, if you have a foundational bit of law that vests the ability for the government to levy taxes upon the citizenry then it is the governments "right" to do such.

    In a final example if one is living in a relatively anarchistic government that does have rules in any way for the government to tax, fine, or demand property from the citizenry then they would NOT have a "right" to do such.

    All those are situations where its the government in question having the right or no right to take.

    There can be situations in regards to the social contract that your scenario could happen. For example, if through the law it is understood that if you default on rightful payment to another that the government can forcefully take an item of equal value and give it to the individual you've cheated, then someone would have a narrowly defined "right" to take from someone else by way of the government.

    You can also have situations where people abstractly talk about "taking" where you combine a governments ability to tax with their ability to grant entitlements. In such cases ones "right" would rely on the law. For example, if there was a law that said the government would pay for one drink a day for all individuals aged 21 years old then its their legal "right" to have that drink paid for. The pay would come out of the government funds, which was generated by taxes which in this case was the "right" of the government to levy. As such one could abstractly state that the individual getting the drink "took" the money from someone else, and if we are to buy that line of reasoning then yes it would be their "Right" based on the laws of the government that both sides have entered into and agree to live under. In reality though the more reasonable suggestion is that the person is "taking" from the government, not from any specific individual. If however there was no right to say, hiring a prostitute, then someone could not go force your money to come from the government to pay for your prostitute as a "right" because there's no law dedicating that such is a right and because of this the taking of the money would be wrongful or fraudulent.

    So in essense, it depends on the social contract in which one has entered. In the specific case of the United States, one could say it is "wrong", but one could not say in most cases that it is not the legal "Right" of individuals who are entitled to entitlements to be able to abstractly "take" from other citizens through the government taxing them and giving them the entitlements. However, said right could be changed and if you disagree with it you should fight for it to be changed.

    Note, you did not specific the kind of "right" you speak of. There is a difference between say fundamental or natural rights, constitutional rights, and legal rights.

    Even if we are to believe that the "Right" not to have your property taken is a fundamental one, individuals are able to give up fundamental rights in exchange for entering into a social contract

  9. #99
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    Re: Do You Have The Right To Other People's Property?

    Another absurdity and no vote.
    of course not, providing the property is actually yours.
    Land, I question...
    Excess money, I question...

  10. #100
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    Re: Do You Have The Right To Other People's Property?

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    Another absurdity and no vote.
    of course not, providing the property is actually yours.
    Land, I question...
    Excess money, I question...
    Hmm - land - we might see eye to eye on that.

    But 'excess money' - just becomes someone's a savvy business person means they aren't really in ownership of their 'excess' ??
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