View Poll Results: Unemployment....why???

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  • Conservative policies

    22 16.18%
  • Liberal policies

    83 61.03%
  • both

    22 16.18%
  • our greed

    21 15.44%
  • other, please explain.

    26 19.12%
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Thread: Why the unemployment? A poll

  1. #141
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    Re: Why the unemployment? A poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    If you are trying to develop a country that has no industrial base into a country with an industrial base protectionism has been vital for the majority of countries.

    Japan would be no where as wealthy as it is now with out protectism it had during the 60-90's, same goes for South Korea.
    Comparative advantage. I think we've discussed this before.

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    Re: Why the unemployment? A poll

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Comparative advantage. I think we've discussed this before.
    Yes we have

    And you fail to understand that comparative advantage can change over time. Japan would not be a manufacturer and strong exporter without governmental directives to achieve it. Japan's government changed Japan's comparative advantage over time to direct Japan into being a country that produces high value goods and services.
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  3. #143
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    Re: Why the unemployment? A poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Yes we have

    And you fail to understand that comparative advantage can change over time. Japan would not be a manufacturer and strong exporter without governmental directives to achieve it. Japan's government changed Japan's comparative advantage over time to direct Japan into being a country that produces high value goods and services.
    Here is my view on Comparative advantage

    A typical example for the theory of Comparative advantage has been the production of Wheat versus the production of Cotton. The theory is fine when discussing a command economy, where a central authority will determine what is produced. However when the economy is free, comparative advantage fails. If a company is producing goods profitably, but not in a country that has the comparative advantage for that product, that company is not going to close up shop and transfer production to the country with the comparative advantage. Typically companies will only relocate or close up shop when they are no longer competitive in the production of that product. This is the competitive advantage, which will over time cause production to be maximized. Comparative advantage without competitive reasoning will fail to occur in a free market. This will mean the costs of production in the country with the “competitive advantage” will have to be low enough to ensure it also has a competitive advantage over production in other countries.

    The reason Indonesia produces textiles and increasingly so while Canada’s textile industry is decreasing is not because of its comparative advantage, but because it has a competitive advantage in the production of textiles. It can produce textiles cheaper then can Canada. Should the cost of producing textiles in Indonesia rise above that in Canada, the production of textiles will transfer back to Canada, or seek another cheaper location.
    Today we see the same issues in China, where labour costs are increasing in many of its eastern cities. This is changing the competitive advantage China has had in the production of many goods, and is causing some factories to close and relocate to other areas (including locations further west in China). Comparative advantage has little to do with the above, it is entirely based on competitive advantage.

    Realistically comparative advantage only matters in the production of resources, which are based on physical limitations of production. For example, the production of wheat vs rice or Bananas vs oranges can use the theory of comparative advantage to maximize production of the goods. But when the limiting factor in production is capital rather than physical, comparative advantage fails as an effective theory
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  4. #144
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    Re: Why the unemployment? A poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Yes we have

    And you fail to understand that comparative advantage can change over time. Japan would not be a manufacturer and strong exporter without governmental directives to achieve it. Japan's government changed Japan's comparative advantage over time to direct Japan into being a country that produces high value goods and services.
    Without trade barriers they would have developed the most desired industries that world consumers wanted them to develop. It may have been technology, may have been manufacturing. Either way, trade barriers are inefficient. It's like the government telling you where to work. Do you think that would be an efficient system?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  5. #145
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    Re: Why the unemployment? A poll

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Without trade barriers they would have developed the most desired industries that world consumers wanted them to develop. It may have been technology, may have been manufacturing. Either way, trade barriers are inefficient. It's like the government telling you where to work. Do you think that would be an efficient system?
    American consumer's wouldnt care what Japan produced. To buy a product from Japan they would want that product to be price competitive with products from other countries.

    As Japan did not have any expertise in manufacturing, electronics, it would be extremely unlikely that Japan would have developed the high tech industries that it has. Which could have left it doing low value manufacturing for decades. This could have left the living standard in Japan at levels far lower then it is today
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  6. #146
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    Re: Why the unemployment? A poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    American consumer's wouldnt care what Japan produced. To buy a product from Japan they would want that product to be price competitive with products from other countries.

    As Japan did not have any expertise in manufacturing, electronics, it would be extremely unlikely that Japan would have developed the high tech industries that it has. Which could have left it doing low value manufacturing for decades. This could have left the living standard in Japan at levels far lower then it is today
    Doubtful, since high tech industries would not remain in Japan unless there was good reason to be there. Japan actually had a very free market as compared to Europe after WWII which may explain its tremendous growth. New monetary and fiscal policies may explain their stagnant economy the past 20 years. Allowing capital to be invested in Japan is really what made that country grow like a weed, not protectionism. Remember that protectionism helps certain industries only at the expense of ALL of the other industries in that country.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  7. #147
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    Re: Why the unemployment? A poll

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Doubtful, since high tech industries would not remain in Japan unless there was good reason to be there. Japan actually had a very free market as compared to Europe after WWII which may explain its tremendous growth. New monetary and fiscal policies may explain their stagnant economy the past 20 years. Allowing capital to be invested in Japan is really what made that country grow like a weed, not protectionism. Remember that protectionism helps certain industries only at the expense of ALL of the other industries in that country.
    Right, the high tech industry remains in Japan because of a highly skilled workforce that is not easily duplicated without great expense in another location. What I am stating is that Japan would not have developed high tech industries without governmentt support. There was no reason for Japan to develop one at the time it did. At most Japan would have been an assembler of high tech products like Malaysia was, it would not have been a developer of the products, it would have been a low value producer.

    Japans economy has been stagnant because it has the massive debts and fallout from its bubble economy back in the 90s to work out, which has wiped out trillions of dollars in wealth, a declining population that is focusing on savings (which are being used poorly by the Japanese government or funding the carry trade) and cheaper compittion from South Korea and now China.

    Japan's consumers were and are the ones to suffer paying higher prices for goods then otherwise, at the same time they benifited from higher wages from Japan becoming a high value producer
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  8. #148
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    Re: Why the unemployment? A poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlevah View Post
    I said "our greed." Corporations spent the last almost thirty years seeking "economies" and "synergies" through outsourcing and layoffs and by paying the workers who were left a small fraction of what they paid executive "talent." Collectively, the serfs (working stiffs) took on a consumerist mindset in which they never saved an acorn their lords (corporate masters) tossed them. For many of us among the more affluent, it was all about the here and the now: the bigger SUV; the house in the burbs with the hot tub and the wet bar that were the envy of Mom and Dad; the cruises to Mexico and the Caribbean--all paid for with borrowed money. But no problem--saving was for chumps; they'd make it all up in the stock market or by selling their homes to greater fools or, as a last resort, by taking out a HELOC against their home equity.

    Investment banks weren't satisfied with the incomes they made helping companies raise capital by selling stocks and bonds. They set up M&A departments so they could advise the "talent" on the best way to achieve those "synergies" and "efficiencies," usually by advising the "talent" to borrow huge sums of money from the few chumps who actually dared to use banks as a place to save money. The "talent" would pay for the "deal" later by selling off pieces in fits and starts. If some people had to lose their jobs during the adjustment process, well, too bad; that's just the way the Darwinian cookie crumbled. The investment bankers decided they could make even more money by creating and selling esoteric derivatives--LEAPS and swaps and forwards and backwards and upside downs--that even they didn't properly understand. They set up proprietary trading departments to buy and sell securities at speeds and volumes that would make a craps player at Caesars wince. Then the commercial and retail banks saw the money being made and decided they wanted in on the action, so they lobbied Congress to get rid of Glass-Steagall.

    Unfortunately, things didn't quite work out the way people expected. Home prices cratered, real incomes stagnated, and, while the executive "talent" took a bigger chunk of the pie, they couldn't make the S&P 500 budge in ten years. So much to adding to shareholder value. Meanwhile, the debt hangover has left us with 54 trillion reasons why demand will be flat and the word "stock" will be a dirty word for years to come.

    This unemployment thing goes way beyond labels like "conservative" or "liberal." We're all to blame in one way or another.
    This explanation makes by far the most sense. Its very similar to the one I have heard on PBS.
    Now for the solution..
    Another poll?

  9. #149
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    Re: Why the unemployment? A poll

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    Another poll?
    Go for it. I've already got a solution in mind.
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  10. #150
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    Re: Why the unemployment? A poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Right, the high tech industry remains in Japan because of a highly skilled workforce that is not easily duplicated without great expense in another location. What I am stating is that Japan would not have developed high tech industries without governmentt support. There was no reason for Japan to develop one at the time it did. At most Japan would have been an assembler of high tech products like Malaysia was, it would not have been a developer of the products, it would have been a low value producer.

    Japans economy has been stagnant because it has the massive debts and fallout from its bubble economy back in the 90s to work out, which has wiped out trillions of dollars in wealth, a declining population that is focusing on savings (which are being used poorly by the Japanese government or funding the carry trade) and cheaper compittion from South Korea and now China.

    Japan's consumers were and are the ones to suffer paying higher prices for goods then otherwise, at the same time they benifited from higher wages from Japan becoming a high value producer
    So if protectionism is the reason, why didn't it work for Brazil?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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