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Is Taxation Slavery?

Is Taxation Slavery?

  • Yes

    Votes: 12 16.7%

  • No

    Votes: 53 73.6%

  • Other (Explain)

    Votes: 7 9.7%
  • Total voters
    72
Agent Ferris said:
I never agreed to such a system

Again I never agreed to such a system, why would any sane individual relinquish their right to the right of self ownership to a group of other men?

I would rather have no government in which the individual not the state hold the power of sovereign.
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Have fun in Somalia! :2wave:
 
Agent Ferris said:
I never agreed to such a system
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Then you have three options if you don't like it. You can agitate for change in the system peacefully, you can try to change it by force, or you can leave.

Again I never agreed to such a system, why would any sane individual relinquish their right to the right of self ownership to a group of other men?
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I could give you some great philosophers on the subject if you're interested, but I would disagree you don't own yourself.

I would rather have no government in which the individual not the state hold the power of sovereign.
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Agent Ferris said:
That's a load of ****ing bull****, that's like saying that if I stick a gun in your face and tell me to give me all of your cash that you are giving me that money voluntarily. The state takes taxes by force that is the exact opposite of voluntary.
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Angry are we, Agent Ferris?? I send my taxes in quarterly. Wouldn't have to if I didn't want to. In fact, there are tax protesters all over the place who use legal angles to wrangle their way into not paying. Perhaps you should look into that. Or quit work. Or move to "that other country."
 
There are LOTS of things my government does that I disagree with. There are LOTS of things it spends money on that I don't like. There are LOTS of tax laws I hate.

But I'm a patriotic American, and a loyal American, and I know that this is what democracy is all about. I won't always get my way.

And when I want change, I work for campaigns, contribute, vote, contact my congressman, and work, because in America that's how things get done.

I suppose I could sit back and whine and claim that every time the majority elects politicians I don't like who do things I disagree with that I was a "slave" being "robbed" but I can't, because I'm a patriot. I know that's how it works -- because there are also things the government does that I agree with completely and thus someone else is upset. That's how it works. I don't always get my way, and other people don't always get their way. That's democracy.

I seriously have to question whether someone who didn't understand this basic concept would be a true American.
 
Groucho said:
There are LOTS of things my government does that I disagree with. There are LOTS of things it spends money on that I don't like. There are LOTS of tax laws I hate.

But I'm a patriotic American, and a loyal American, and I know that this is what democracy is all about. I won't always get my way.

And when I want change, I work for campaigns, contribute, vote, contact my congressman, and work, because in America that's how things get done.

I suppose I could sit back and whine and claim that every time the majority elects politicians I don't like who do things I disagree with that I was a "slave" being "robbed" but I can't, because I'm a patriot. I know that's how it works -- because there are also things the government does that I agree with completely and thus someone else is upset. That's how it works. I don't always get my way, and other people don't always get their way. That's democracy.

I seriously have to question whether someone who didn't understand this basic concept would be a true American.
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America is not a democracy. It is a democratic republic.
 
the makeout hobo said:
How is the federal government saying that it would collect tariffs and protect federal property a declaration of war? That is the job of the federal government. The federal government had been doing that for decades, I'm not sure if that counts at "going to war over". Morever, you are completely discounting the rhetoric and reason given for the South's act of treason. You sir have no grasp of history, and you are defending slave owners and vile human beings to back up your own sick twisted view of reality.
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You are missing the last half of the sentence of what Lincoln said. I'm sorry that you keep making excuses for an illegal war and for a dictator. He stated that if he wasn't able to collect the duties and imposts under the Morrell Tariff that he would use invasion and war to accomplish those aims. As for not having a grasp of history, the only person in this debate that has sourced anything has been me. You have yet to cite a single source to back up your statements. No, I am not defending slave owners. I AM telling you what it was like in the context of the times that the events occured. There has been no calls of judgement from me regarding slavery and your claim that I did is laughable at best. Also, one cannot commit treason when they are no longer subject to the government. I suggest you read Lysander Spooner's book No Treason and he was a northern abolitionist that supported Lincoln's war. The only person that doesn't have a grasp of history is you. I have been studying American history, with an emphasis on 1620-1875 for 27 years now.

but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion, no using of force against or among the people anywhere.
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the makeout hobo said:
At best a legal loophole, not "the north allowed slavery" like you stated.
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Not a legal loophole, since it was the way things were back then. The north had no choice but to accept slavery since the Constitution of the United States protected it. I give you Article IV Section II Clauses I and III.

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.

No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.

the makeout hobo said:
I haven't stated anything that needs to be sourced. If there is any statement you'd like me to source, feel free.
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You're right that you haven't said anything that has any historical documentation to support. You have zero grasp of history and your empty words without backing proves this to be the case. No evidence means you lose.
 
Agent Ferris said:
And by service you mean an elaborate legalized racketeering scheme.
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No. I mean clean and cheap water and power. Good and well kept roads. Professional police departments etc. All things that the people I have an opportunity to vote for or against help maintain.

Agent Ferris said:
The private sector is anything but private. We live under a corporatist system of state capitalism not a free market.
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Completely different issue all together. It really is a debate unto itself.

Agent Ferris said:
Actually the state is the biggest offender.
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According to whom? You? :lol:

Agent Ferris said:
That's the funniest thing I've heard all day. The state is a for profit monopoly with guns and the self designated authority to use them to coerce the individual into paying their annual protection money.
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Wow, that is so typical of the "I hate government no matter what crowed." I am no fan of big government, but it could be so much worse. If you don't like our system, you can always move? I would.

Throw out we the people vote the people into office. :doh

I mean really, it's a good thing that people with that mind set are in the lunatic fringe and have no chance of ever gaining any power.

Agent Ferris said:
Amazing how statists are willing to trust the state to do the right thing even though history has shown that this will never happen and in fact bends them over the counter on a daily basis without even the courtesy of a reach around.
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I am a statist now? LMAO! I am about as far as you can get from that. I am a realist though. We have a system and we have to work to better it. This means realistic goals and not libertarian or green party Utopian pipe dreams that belong on the fringe.
 
The_Patriot said:
Just because it was lower then the north doesn't mean that the south was uneducated, so you actually fail. Literacy in the south was between 81-90% which isn't that far off from the north's 91%.
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According to your source, literacy was not or had little to do with being educated.
 
depends

use taxes are fair-stuff like gasoline taxes, hunting licenses, etc

sales taxes are mainly fair

progressive income taxes are extortion and are an extra-constitutional power grab by congress using "divide and conquer". everyone should be able to keep the same percentage of the next dollar they earn. No group should be able to increase the taxes of another group while suffering no loss of wealth or income themselves
 
The_Patriot said:
You are missing the last half of the sentence of what Lincoln said. I'm sorry that you keep making excuses for an illegal war and for a dictator.
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This pretty much sums up the lunacy of your argument. :lol:
 
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Blackdog said:
According to your source, literacy was not or had little to do with being educated.
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And that was a single source, which also states that the study of education in the antebellum south has been ignored. The south was on par with education as the north was. I have yet to see anyone source that it was otherwise.
 
The_Patriot said:
And that was a single source, which also states that the study of antebellum south has been ignored. The south was on par with education as the north was. I have yet to see anyone source that it was otherwise.
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You made the statement that they were on par. The burden of proof is on you. So far you have failed as even your source disagrees.
 
Blackdog said:
According to your source, literacy was not or had little to do with being educated.
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he is correct to some extent. There were master craftsmen who could not read. I doubt the men who forged the finest katana in Japan were much good at reading. However, they were highly educated in making iron into folded steel, and and what temperature (done by color) steel needed to be brought to in order to create the best edge and the strongest sword.

In modern society, it is difficult to believe someone could be educated without being able to absorb written information. But many societies, in the course of history, had very wise individuals who could not read. If I recall correctly, until Seqoia developed it, most Native Americans had no writing. Were some of those people educated? of course. Many harvard PhDs would starve to death if you put them in a 40,000 acre forest alone and with no modern communication devices. IN that situation, those men would be UNEDUCATED. Now a Shawnee or Huron in the same situation would probably have been far more educated on how to feed himself, make a shelter, and find his way back to his people
 
In answer to the question "Is taxation slavery"? No its not but if one is taxed to the point where said income is made just for the said taxation then yes it is.
 
TurtleDude said:
he is correct to some extent. There were master craftsmen who could not read. I doubt the men who forged the finest katana in Japan were much good at reading. However, they were highly educated in making iron into folded steel, and and what temperature (done by color) steel needed to be brought to in order to create the best edge and the strongest sword.

In modern society, it is difficult to believe someone could be educated without being able to absorb written information. But many societies, in the course of history, had very wise individuals who could not read. If I recall correctly, until Seqoia developed it, most Native Americans had no writing. Were some of those people educated? of course. Many harvard PhDs would starve to death if you put them in a 40,000 acre forest alone and with no modern communication devices. IN that situation, those men would be UNEDUCATED. Now a Shawnee or Huron in the same situation would probably have been far more educated on how to feed himself, make a shelter, and find his way back to his people
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Turtle, it has nothing to do with that. She was asking about the actual education level as in schooling. He said it was on par and posted the article as proof. The article actually disagreed with his assessment.

He also said literacy = education, and the proof he posted said it does not.
 
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chevydriver1123 said:
In answer to the question "Is taxation slavery"? No its not but if one is taxed to the point where said income is made just for the said taxation then yes it is.
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I saw something today that noted if the dems really want to reduce the deficits and not make the middle class pay any more and pay for obama care those making over 200K a year will have to pay rates around 75%. Some Union turd demanded that rate as well. That is enslavement.
 
Blackdog said:
Turtle, it has nothing to do with that. She was asking about the actual education level as in schooling. He said it was on par and posted the article as proof. The article actually disagreed with his assessment.

He also said literacy = education, and the proof he posted said it does not.
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I was going by the quoted comment

When I was accepted into two top colleges-my father, a top graduate of the Yale School of engineering-reminded me to never confuse being intelligent with being well educated for many people who are well educated are not intelligent and many brilliant men have had little in the way of schooling.

education includes schooling-but it is much more than that.
 
Regarding the poll question: No.

Some aspects of specific taxes may be the same as some aspects of specific slavery instances...

But that by no means equals a correlation between taxation in general and slavery in general.
 
TurtleDude said:
I was going by the quoted comment

When I was accepted into two top colleges-my father, a top graduate of the Yale School of engineering-reminded me to never confuse being intelligent with being well educated for many people who are well educated are not intelligent and many brilliant men have had little in the way of schooling.

education includes schooling-but it is much more than that.
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We are talking the 1800's here. No comparison my friend.
 
The Mark said:
Regarding the poll question: No.

Some aspects of specific taxes may be the same as some aspects of specific slavery instances...

But that by no means equals a correlation between taxation in general and slavery in general.
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That is what the majority of us have been saying.
 
Blackdog said:
You made the statement that they were on par. The burden of proof is on you. So far you have failed as even your source disagrees.
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The burden of proof is upon you and others to disprove it. Here is another pdf that discusses a study of the market of schools in both the north and south pre-1860. In the south, many of the schools were private, charity, or church based. Parents would send their children to one of these schools for education and pay a tuition to have it done. By having such a network of private schools, southerners were educated. So the burden of proof is on you to show that the south wasn't educated.
 
Blackdog said:
That is what the majority of us have been saying.
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Having not read the thread (or if I did, I forgot completely), I didn't really know.

But the poll indicated that.

Anyone care to sum up what the small opposition (what is that, 3 people? Perhaps 7?) argued?
 
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