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Is Taxation Slavery?

Is Taxation Slavery?

  • Yes

    Votes: 12 16.7%

  • No

    Votes: 53 73.6%

  • Other (Explain)

    Votes: 7 9.7%
  • Total voters
    72
Blackdog said:
The Confederate flag is seen as a symbol of racism by some and as a symbol of rebelion by others. Either way unlike Germany, who hides it's history and acts as if it never happend, we should (and do for the most part) aknowledge our histry and embrace it good or bad. It is in the end who we are and where we come from.

The Confederate flag in the end is just the flag of a failed union of states.
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That's why it makes me angry and sad when you have people like the Governor of Mississippi and Virginia completely downplaying or ignoring the slavery aspect of the CSA
 
LiberalAvenger said:
Interesting. No notes provided but available upon request. Let me guess. Send cash, check, or money order to blah, blah, blah.
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I linked the html version, but here's the pdf one, but yeah I agree that the notes would have been nice. I don't think it's a money thing since the person had a 20 page limit to meet.
 
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The_Patriot said:
Actually, the Constitution does state in the Tenth Amendment, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." Since the states are not prohibited from leaving in Article I Section X of the Constitution of the United States they retain the power they held. The people had nothing to do with the Constitution since it was ratified by the states by delegates appointed by the state legislatures.
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If we use that logic, then my state has the right to force your state to stay. The tenth amendment is vague and doesn't address anything specifically concerning our conversation. You can make an inference there, but I've never read anything suggesting that the tenth was intended for this purpose
 
The_Patriot said:
Then you'd be surprised that the literacy rates in the south was right about 81-90%. Here's an interesting paper on the subject.
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being able to read and write doesn't imply a high level of education. they typical soldier, not just confederate soldier, wasn't highly educated. first, their relative youth, second, they were typically farmers.
 
the makeout hobo said:
Old Glory is a symbol of those things to various people, sure. But the difference is that genocide wasn't a founding principle of the USA while it was THE reason the CSA broke away
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Genocide has always been a founding principle and the historical evidence bears this out. American Indians were slaughtered for their land and was done so under the flag of the United States government. I give you the Trail of Tears for example. Can you point to where the south had committed genocide under the banner of the Confederate States of America flag? You can't since it never happened. Relations between the southern states and American Indians was very good. I would present you the Declaration of Causes issued by the Cherokee Nation as proof. My point was that your argument that the Confederate flag was all about slavery is incorrect since Old Glory had slavery and other human rights violations committed under it and for far longer.
 
the makeout hobo said:
If we use that logic, then my state has the right to force your state to stay. The tenth amendment is vague and doesn't address anything specifically concerning our conversation. You can make an inference there, but I've never read anything suggesting that the tenth was intended for this purpose
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Actually, you're state has no say in what happens in my state. The power of secession has always been held by the state and is part of the ratification of the Constitution by New York and Virginia.
 
The_Patriot said:
I give you prominent abolitionist Lysander Spooner on the subject of treason in his book No Treason.
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I believe I already had a discussion similar to this with someone else.

In the end, consent is case of begging the question. Government can never be made legitimate soley based on whether consent is given or not.

Government is instead justified based on necessity and fairness.
 
The_Patriot said:
Genocide has always been a founding principle and the historical evidence bears this out. American Indians were slaughtered for their land and was done so under the flag of the United States government. I give you the Trail of Tears for example. Can you point to where the south had committed genocide under the banner of the Confederate States of America flag? You can't since it never happened. Relations between the southern states and American Indians was very good. I would present you the Declaration of Causes issued by the Cherokee Nation as proof. My point was that your argument that the Confederate flag was all about slavery is incorrect since Old Glory had slavery and other human rights violations committed under it and for far longer.
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You are completely missing the point. When the USA broke free from the crown, if you read our document explaining why, we gave a list of reasons, many related to taxation. If you read the documents as to why those states broke free from the CSA, it was almost entirely over slavery. THAT is the difference.
 
The_Patriot said:
Actually, you're state has no say in what happens in my state. The power of secession has always been held by the state and is part of the ratification of the Constitution by New York and Virginia.
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Why not? Why doesn't the Tenth give me that power?
 
liblady said:
being able to read and write doesn't imply a high level of education. they typical soldier, not just confederate soldier, wasn't highly educated. first, their relative youth, second, they were typically farmers.
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The south was very educated. By extension most of the north was also relatively farmers. Only in New England states did you find manufacturing on a massive scale. Other northern states did have manufacturing as did southern states, but nowhere near the level that New England had. It's nice to know that you think so little of southerners that they're uneducated slobs. People were uneducated on both sides since education was considered a privilege of the wealthy.
 
LiberalAvenger said:
I think it was 60 minutes but I just saw a show about Afghanistan where they showed a muddy dirty stree with mansions built on it. The mansions are owned by Afghan politicians who pay no taxes on them. There are piles of garbage next to some of them and the street is hardly passable.

The Afghan politicians rent them out to foreigners such as diplomats and the like.

The reason that the streets are like they are is that nobody pays any taxes. I guess you get what you pay for. Go for it anti-taxers.
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We are paying our taxes, but we are not getting what we pay for. Instead, it is being redistributed to those who pay very little or no taxes.
 
The supreme court will never hear a valid case concerning the 9th and tenth amendments. They will rule that the cases are unjustifiable.
 
the makeout hobo said:
You are completely missing the point. When the USA broke free from the crown, if you read our document explaining why, we gave a list of reasons, many related to taxation. If you read the documents as to why those states broke free from the CSA, it was almost entirely over slavery. THAT is the difference.
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Actually, no, the Declaration of Independence makes mention of taxes only once. The vast majority of the reasons given for separation was over the pleniary power the King used over the states to their detriment without regard to Parliment or the state legislatures. Funny, that Lincoln and presidents since have ignored Congress on numerous occassions. Slavery was also part of the Declaration of Independence since it was a part of colonial life both in the north and in the south. I also said that you are taking the declarations of secession out of their historical context which is a logical fallacy. If you want to use them then you have to include the Morrell Tariff and Lincolns support of slavery in order to keep the taxes rolling in. You also have to use that due to the vast amount of capital invested into slaves that the Morrell Tariff would have crippled the southern economy due to the taxes that the south would have to pay to the federal government. The key is context.
 
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The_Patriot said:
Actually, no, the Declaration of Independence makes mention of taxes only once. The vast majority of the reasons given for separation was over the pleniary power the King used over the states to their detriment without regard to Parliment or the state legislatures. Funny, that Lincoln and presidents since have ignored Congress on numerous occassions. Slavery was also part of the Declaration of Independence since it was a part of colonial life both in the north and in the south.
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Except it WASN'T PART OF THE DOCUMENT. It may have been part of life, but none of the reasons given had anything to do with slavery. Now tell me, what state issues did the south secede over?
 
The_Patriot said:
The south was very educated. By extension most of the north was also relatively farmers. Only in New England states did you find manufacturing on a massive scale. Other northern states did have manufacturing as did southern states, but nowhere near the level that New England had. It's nice to know that you think so little of southerners that they're uneducated slobs. People were uneducated on both sides since education was considered a privilege of the wealthy.
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don't put words in my mouth. if you bothered to read, you would see that i posted that a typical soldier, not just confederate soldier, wasn't highly educated. of course, that would require something more than a knee jerk reaction.
 
liblady said:
don't put words in my mouth. if you bothered to read, you would see that i posted that a typical soldier, not just confederate soldier, wasn't highly educated. of course, that would require something more than a knee jerk reaction.
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Your first comment concerning this was, "i am wondering just how educated the typical confederate soldier was." in post #105. I didn't put any words in your mouth since you said it yourself.
 
The_Patriot said:
Your first comment concerning this was, "i am wondering just how educated the typical confederate soldier was." in post #105. I didn't put any words in your mouth since you said it yourself.
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Yes but by asking that, she wasn't suggesting the typical northern soldier was any better
 
megaprogman said:
I am curious if you are only referring to the plantation owners or everyone.
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Everyone since plantantion owners accounted for less then 10% of the population. They also held 90% of the slaves. Slave owners were all races, so don't try the whites were only slave owners card. Your average Confederate didn't own a single slave and fought against invasion of their homes by an out of control federal government.
 
The_Patriot said:
Everyone since plantantion owners accounted for less then 10% of the population. They also held 90% of the slaves. Slave owners were all races, so don't try the whites were only slave owners card. Your average Confederate didn't own a single slave and fought against invasion of their homes by an out of control federal government.
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There were black slave owners? Again, do you disagree that the main reason the south seceded was the state right of slavery?
 
The_Patriot said:
Everyone since plantantion owners accounted for less then 10% of the population. They also held 90% of the slaves. Slave owners were all races, so don't try the whites were only slave owners card. Your average Confederate didn't own a single slave and fought against invasion of their homes by an out of control federal government.
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How does plantation owners being less than 10% of the population equate to all free southerners being educated? Also, what do you consider educated? Basic reading skills, knowing a trade, some sort of arithmetic skills, something else?
 
the makeout hobo said:
Except it WASN'T PART OF THE DOCUMENT. It may have been part of life, but none of the reasons given had anything to do with slavery. Now tell me, what state issues did the south secede over?
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I already told you that the south seceded over the Morrell Tariff. Slavery was used as the language since it was an economic issue as well as a legislative issue. Slavery was NOT on the table in 1861 since Lincoln made it clear that he was fine with slavery and his support of the Corwin Amendment. He threatened war if the south didn't comply with the Morrell Tariff. Picking and choosing what you want to use is not an option. You have to use the documents in their historical context and you haven't been. As an aside, slavery was legal in the United States for 79 years and protected by the Constitution of the United States. It was legal in the north during the entire war. A historical sidenote that when the Statute of Freedom was raised in 1863 over the US Capitol Building it was done by slaves. How ironic is that? :lol:
 
The_Patriot said:
Your first comment concerning this was, "i am wondering just how educated the typical confederate soldier was." in post #105. I didn't put any words in your mouth since you said it yourself.
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you did, you claimed i thought southerners were uneducated slobs. your bad.
 
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