View Poll Results: Is Taxation Slavery?

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  • Yes

    18 17.14%
  • No

    78 74.29%
  • Other (Explain)

    9 8.57%
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Thread: Is Taxation Slavery?

  1. #831
    Educator Helvidius's Avatar
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    The US Constitution is a legal contract between the states and the federal government. It isn't a social contract since it has no bearing on society. As for the answer to your question, the answer lies in the Declaration of Independence. Thomas Jefferson wrote, "accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
    The very preamble of the U.S. Constitution is written as such: "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." Therefore it is the people that provide the Constitution to establish a federal government. Also, in Marcos vs Manglapus the Supreme Court ruled: “the Constitution, aside from being an allocation of power is also a social contract whereby the people have surrendered their sovereign powers to the State for the common good.” I would also argue the U.S. Constitution has a huge bearing on society. And I agree with you that TJ quote sums it up. I wish people would take after his quote, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
    Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

  2. #832
    Sporadic insanity normal.


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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Regarding the recent discussion about the constitution and ones opinion of our current government's adherence to it...

    Personally, I do not agree with much of the things currently done by the government.

    On the other hand, like the majority of people, I'm too fat and lazy to do anything about it.

    Except talk.

    As I understand it, much of the disagreement about what, exactly, the constitution allows stems from differing interpretations.

    -------------------

    I have my own views, influenced by my parents, childhood, experiences, and so forth…

    In some cases, my views are opposed to currently held interpretations of the constitution.

    In others, I agree, but feel the constitution is not clear enough on the matter. Such as the 2nd.

    And perhaps the 1st.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  3. #833
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    "In a speech given at the 1987 “We the People” Celebration,
    which commemorated the 200th anniversary of the drafting of the
    American Constitution, Reagan argued:
    One scholar described our Constitution as a kind of covenant. It
    is a covenant we’ve made not only with ourselves but with all of
    mankind. . . . It is an oath of allegiance to that in man that is truly
    universal, that core of being that exists before and beyond distinctions
    of class, race, or national origin. It is a dedication of faith to the
    humanity we all share, that part of each man and woman that most
    closely touches on the divine.53
    In his imagination, the ideas contained in the Declaration and
    the Constitution were universally applicable. So too were the corresponding
    institutions and political arrangements, such as those
    that he mentioned in his speech to the British Parliament and
    elsewhere. The United States had a mandate, a moral obligation, to
    make real the possibilities for global political and social order. No
    one needed to fear American power, because it would only be used
    to serve the true interests of all and to realize their dreams for the
    world. This is what Reagan had in mind when referring to America
    52 Ronald Reagan, “Remarks at the Annual Washington Conference of the
    American Legion, February 22, 1983,” in Public Papers of the Presidents of the United
    States: Ronald Reagan: 1983 (In Two Books), Book I—January 1 to July 1, 1983 (Washington,
    D.C.: United States Government Printing Office, 1984), 265-66, 270.
    53 Ronald Reagan, “Remarks at the ‘We the People’ Bicentennial Celebration in
    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, September 17, 1987,” in Public Papers of the Presidents of
    the United States: Ronald Reagan: 1987 (In Two Books), Book II—July 4 to December 31,
    1987 (Washington, D.C.: United States Government Printing Office, 1989), 1042"

    http://www.nhinet.org/garrison21-1.pdf

    The "scholar" that Reagan was referring to was Thomas Paine.
    Last edited by LiberalAvenger; 07-19-10 at 08:08 PM.

  4. #834
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helvidius View Post
    The very preamble of the U.S. Constitution is written as such: "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." Therefore it is the people that provide the Constitution to establish a federal government. Also, in Marcos vs Manglapus the Supreme Court ruled: “the Constitution, aside from being an allocation of power is also a social contract whereby the people have surrendered their sovereign powers to the State for the common good.” I would also argue the U.S. Constitution has a huge bearing on society. And I agree with you that TJ quote sums it up. I wish people would take after his quote, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
    The preamble has no force of law, so it can be discarded. Within the text of the Constitution the people are mentioned very few times, while states and federal government are mentioned numerous times. The Constitution was never ratified by the people, but it was ratified in state conventions by delegates appointed by the state legislature. At no time, did the people, a whole, participate. I, also, don't care what the Supreme Court has ruled because they have allowed the federal government to get away with more then what the Constitution allows.

  5. #835
    Educator Helvidius's Avatar
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    The Constitution is certainly open for debate. It in itself was a compromise between different members of the delegation. However, I believe the founding fathers were in agreement that all U.S. citizens have the right to bear arms.
    Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

  6. #836
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    The preamble has no force of law, so it can be discarded. Within the text of the Constitution the people are mentioned very few times, while states and federal government are mentioned numerous times. The Constitution was never ratified by the people, but it was ratified in state conventions by delegates appointed by the state legislature. At no time, did the people, a whole, participate. I, also, don't care what the Supreme Court has ruled because they have allowed the federal government to get away with more then what the Constitution allows.
    How can you simply discard the preamble of the Constitution? It is not simply how many times 'we the people' is used in the Constitution. The Bill of Rights gives us our unalienable rights! The idea of the Constitution was to setup a federal government so of course there would be numerous mentions of the federal government. You yourself believe in that contract made between you and your government.
    Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

  7. #837
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helvidius View Post
    The Constitution is certainly open for debate. It in itself was a compromise between different members of the delegation. However, I believe the founding fathers were in agreement that all U.S. citizens have the right to bear arms.
    yes, none of the ARC has ever been able to produce a single document contemporaneous with the USSC that suggests otherwise.



  8. #838
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helvidius View Post
    How can you simply discard the preamble of the Constitution? It is not simply how many times 'we the people' is used in the Constitution. The Bill of Rights gives us our unalienable rights! The idea of the Constitution was to setup a federal government so of course there would be numerous mentions of the federal government. You yourself believe in that contract made between you and your government.
    Because I can and do since it has no force of law. The Bill of Rights does *not* give you any rights. It protects the rights that existed prior to the enactment of the Constitution. The Constitution only gives the federal government certain powers while the states and the people retain the rest. No, I believe in the contract between my state and the federal government and the contract between myself and my state. Under Missouri's Constitution the people have the protected right to overthrow the government. I give you Section III of the Missouri Constitution.

    Section 3. That the people of this state have the inherent, sole and exclusive right to regulate the internal government and police thereof, and to alter and abolish their constitution and form of government whenever they may deem it necessary to their safety and happiness, provided such change be not repugnant to the Constitution of the United States.

  9. #839
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helvidius View Post
    How can you simply discard the preamble of the Constitution? It is not simply how many times 'we the people' is used in the Constitution. The Bill of Rights gives us our unalienable rights! The idea of the Constitution was to setup a federal government so of course there would be numerous mentions of the federal government. You yourself believe in that contract made between you and your government.
    wrong-the bill of rights gives us NOTHING. It merely RECOGNIZES something the founders presumed we had prior to the constitution and would remain if the constitution were to be eliminated.



  10. #840
    Educator Helvidius's Avatar
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Because I can and do since it has no force of law. The Bill of Rights does *not* give you any rights. It protects the rights that existed prior to the enactment of the Constitution. The Constitution only gives the federal government certain powers while the states and the people retain the rest. No, I believe in the contract between my state and the federal government and the contract between myself and my state. Under Missouri's Constitution the people have the protected right to overthrow the government. I give you Section III of the Missouri Constitution.

    Section 3. That the people of this state have the inherent, sole and exclusive right to regulate the internal government and police thereof, and to alter and abolish their constitution and form of government whenever they may deem it necessary to their safety and happiness, provided such change be not repugnant to the Constitution of the United States.
    The rights that existed prior to the Constitution were formed under a different government. The form of government changed and thus the Bill of Rights ensures the government enacted by the Constitution will not trample over the specified rights of each individual. The 10th Amendment expressly includes the people: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

    You also have a social contract with your state. If you feel the state has broken that contract you can choose to leave the state. For example, Virginians seceeded from their state to form West Virginia when Virginia sided with the Confederates during the Civil War.
    Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

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