View Poll Results: Is Taxation Slavery?

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  • Yes

    18 17.14%
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    78 74.29%
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Thread: Is Taxation Slavery?

  1. #51
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    I go by the man that sees them every day.
    And you just do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    I, actually, said in the first post "I would have to say yes since the Congressional Budget Office" which is federal.
    Which had nothing at all to do with my later post.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    How cynical you are.
    You should know pretty darn well by now.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    I'm glad to know that you believe that the government can tax you for up to 100% and it still not be slavery. :P
    Why do you continue to put words in peoples mouths?

    Please point out where I said or even implied such stupidity? So far you have not even put forth a single statement by me backing any of your accusations and out right lies about my own statements.

    Again taxation in and of itself is not and never has been slavery. Can it be abused to a point that it could become slavery? Certainly, but that is not what you asked or implied.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Failure to pay taxes does result in the seizure of property and mandatory prison time. How is that not controlling?
    It is controlling. If that is your criteria for what is slavery, then being arrested for murder is slavery.

    Lets face it we are if nothing else a nation of laws. Taxes are part of those laws and expected as your duty as a member of this society. You can choose not to do it if you wish and move some place like Somalia. I here they have no taxes there, a real libertarian utopia.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    I give you this table compliments of Historic Tax Rates in the US.

    # 1954-1963: 91%
    # 1952-1953: 92%
    # 1951: 91%
    # 1950: 84.36%
    # 1948-1949: 82.13%
    # 1946-1947: 86.45%
    # 1944-1945: 94%
    # 1942-1943: 88%
    # 1941: 81%
    # 1940: 81.1%
    # 1936-1939: 79%
    # 1932-1935: 63%

    I ask again where was the civil unrest and job loss for when the tax level was at 91% for top earners? You made the statement that there would be job loss and civil unrest when the level reached that high. I asked for you to back up your statement.
    Most of those were during time of war or great wealth in the country. If you look at times of economic hardship they drop greatly.

    After Vietnam you see a steady drop and very little climb.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Are you denying that the government cannot take away your life, liberty, or finance when you fail to pay income taxes? The current tax laws state that the government can seize your property and make you serve mandatory prison terms for failing to pay. This goes for all types of taxes.
    They can do the same if I get caught with certain drugs or drive while drunk. It is irrelevant as those are not slavery either.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    I'm glad to know that you do trust yourself.
    Not like I can trust anyone else with my own thoughts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  2. #52
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Sure, I can back it up. Here's a source for you.

    The kind of police Americans knew in the early nineteenth century was descended from the medieval police of England--a constable and watch system composed of a volunteer night watch, who patrolled the city, and a daytime constable, who supervised the watch and charged fees for his services. Most night watchmen, however, were actually paid substitutes for volunteers and traditionally were drawn from society's unemployables. When Dogberry in Shakespeare's Much Ado about Nothing selects a night constable from among the watchmen, he picks "the most senseless and fit man," whom he orders, "You shall comprehend all vagrom men." As for sleeping on the job, Dogberry offers that he "cannot see how sleeping should offend; only, have a care that your bills [weapons] be not stolen." In this scene, Shakespeare ridiculed the notorious failings of the watch, which persisted through the nineteenth century: they drank, slept, and ran from any sign of danger. And constables were venal, illiterate Dogberries, intervening in crimes only when there was the promise of a good fee. In the United States, similar complaints were voiced about the watch and constables, but cities managed to survive under this loose system until they were quite large. New York had over a half million people before it got a permanent police in 1853, Boston about 175,000 (1859), and Philadelphia about 250,000 (1856).
    It was such a great success it was replaced!

    Again it cannot work today.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Citing the Continental Congress is about as valid as citing the English court when talking about the Congress of the United States. Two different governments there bud since the Continental Congress was a UN style of organization that had little authority. It met only for two years before being dissolved upon the ratification of the Articles of Confederation and the appointment of the Congress of the Confederation. The Congress of the Confederation was dissolved after the Constitution of the United States was ratified and the Congress of the United States was elected. Try using the current government and not one that was dissolved by an act of the states.
    It does not matter, it was our fledgling government whether you like it or not.

    You are still wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  3. #53
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Taxes=slavery... =appeal to emotion logical fallacy.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  4. #54
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Please point out where I said or even implied such stupidity? So far you have not even put forth a single statement by me backing any of your accusations and out right lies about my own statements.
    In my original post I stated the tax rate would be at about 90% and you did not dispute it. In fact, you came down on the side of saying that it was not slavery for that amount of income to be paid as taxes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Again taxation in and of itself is not and never has been slavery. Can it be abused to a point that it could become slavery? Certainly, but that is not what you asked or implied.
    I did state it in my first post with the citation of 90% in taxes on income. You stated that it wasn't slavery for that level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    It is controlling. If that is your criteria for what is slavery, then being arrested for murder is slavery.
    Yes, because we all know that tax evasion is a criminal offense in the same category as murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Lets face it we are if nothing else a nation of laws. Taxes are part of those laws and expected as your duty as a member of this society. You can choose not to do it if you wish and move some place like Somalia. I here they have no taxes there, a real libertarian utopia.
    Wow, you sounded just like Gus there. In the United States all laws must be just to be valid. Any law that is unjust is invalid from the moment of its passage. That's what the Supreme Court handed down in Marbury v. Madison in 1803 and is a part of case law that has yet to be overturned. So yes, we may be a country of laws, but are those laws just? The rest of your statement is a red herring since I'm talking about 90%+ taxation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Most of those were during time of war or great wealth in the country. If you look at times of economic hardship they drop greatly.
    Most of the time it was in times of economic hardship. Are you saying that it's okay for the government to take all of your money when the times are tough for it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    After Vietnam you see a steady drop and very little climb.
    Yes, because people got tired of paying almost all of their money to the government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    They can do the same if I get caught with certain drugs or drive while drunk. It is irrelevant as those are not slavery either.
    Again, you are comparing apples to oranges since we all know that depriving the government of the fruits of your labor is the same as possessing drugs or driving while drunk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Not like I can trust anyone else with my own thoughts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    It was such a great success it was replaced!

    Again it cannot work today.
    Actually, it hasn't been replaced as there are many places with private security and it works just fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    It does not matter, it was our fledgling government whether you like it or not.

    You are still wrong.
    Yes, because we all know that it was the exact same government under the same Constitution and all that. Can we pull in English and French Parliments plus all of the other European governments since they're all part of our fledgling government? Saying I'm wrong and proving it are two different things. I have proven you wrong that they are two completely different governments operating under two different legal systems.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Taxes=slavery... =appeal to emotion logical fallacy.
    90%+ taxes=slavery...=valid argument

    Claiming appeal to emotion without following all of the facts=logical fallacy
    Last edited by The_Patriot; 07-12-10 at 04:01 AM.

  5. #55
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    90%+ taxes=slavery...=valid argument

    Claiming appeal to emotion without following all of the facts=logical fallacy
    Not in the least. Your terminology is an appeal to emotion. You are mis-using the word "slavery" to draw emotion to your position. Perfect example of the fallacy.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  6. #56
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Not in the least. Your terminology is an appeal to emotion. You are mis-using the word "slavery" to draw emotion to your position. Perfect example of the fallacy.
    I already gave the definition of slavery I was using compliments of Collins English Dictionary-Complete and Unabridged, but I'll cite it again.

    1. (Law) the state or condition of being a slave; a civil relationship whereby one person has absolute power over another and controls his life, liberty, and fortune

    Therefore, under said definition I am not misusing the terminology which also means it's not an appeal to emotion.

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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    This is based off what someone said in another thread. Since the 14th Amendment prohibits slavery of any kind does income, consumption based, and sale taxes a form of slavery that economically ties a person to the government and by default the poor?

    I would have to say yes since the Congressional Budget Office has stated many times that the route the country is going that many people working in 2020 and beyond will have to pay roughly 90% of their income in taxes to keep up the rate of services the government provides. This, to me, is economic slavery to the government and a violation of the 14th Amendment.
    Under a democratic form of government where the public freely elects their leaders, slavery is not a form of taxation. We all as a group choose our leaders, and they pass the laws they see fit. We have the option of changing our leaders if we want to change their laws. Since no person has "absolute power" or "controls his life, liberty, or fortune", it is not slavery.
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

  8. #58
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Private police and fire departments and road builders. Rather than being compelled by the state to finance these operations the individual would engage in voluntary contractual agreements for these services.
    And if I am too poor, I have no one to defend my property from thieves or fire, and I can't drive on roads. I don't think I like this system.
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

  9. #59
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    I already gave the definition of slavery I was using compliments of Collins English Dictionary-Complete and Unabridged, but I'll cite it again.

    1. (Law) the state or condition of being a slave; a civil relationship whereby one person has absolute power over another and controls his life, liberty, and fortune

    Therefore, under said definition I am not misusing the terminology which also means it's not an appeal to emotion.
    Of course you are misusing the terminology. One who is taxed does not have their life absolutely controlled. Your definition does not apply to taxation. It is an appeal to emotion, to gain points by saying something dramatic.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  10. #60
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    Under a democratic form of government where the public freely elects their leaders, slavery is not a form of taxation. We all as a group choose our leaders, and they pass the laws they see fit. We have the option of changing our leaders if we want to change their laws. Since no person has "absolute power" or "controls his life, liberty, or fortune", it is not slavery.

    The United States government is a corporation, which under corporate law does make it a person. Therefore, the government as a person does have absolute power and controls his life, liberty, or fortune. Thus, under said definition it is slavery.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Of course you are misusing the terminology. One who is taxed does not have their life absolutely controlled. Your definition does not apply to taxation. It is an appeal to emotion, to gain points by saying something dramatic.
    Can you go from place to place whenever you so desire using your property, vehicle, to get there without license plates or a drivers license? No, you cannot. Can you start a business without having a Tax and Employer IDs? Nope, you cannot. Can you work without having to supply proof of identity required by federal law to use an I9 form? No, you cannot. Can you work and not pay taxes? No, you cannot. Can you go to jail, lose your property, and your money for failing to adhere to these laws? Yes, you can. Thus, the definition does apply to taxation since the government does control your life, liberty, or fortune absolutely.

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