View Poll Results: Is Taxation Slavery?

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  • Yes

    18 17.14%
  • No

    78 74.29%
  • Other (Explain)

    9 8.57%
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Thread: Is Taxation Slavery?

  1. #401
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    no-an amendment to the constitution supposedly allows income tax but it was anathema to the founding fathers

    lets suppose the income tax is being discussed prior to ratification-give us a good argument why we should have an income tax

    and make it to the founders-for they were land owners and pretty much the top of society.


    make an argument why winners would incorporate such a thing in a document they created
    Because they had a code of honor and were great humanists. A lot of them were Masons who believed in the betterment of mankind.

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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    The constitution allows taxation, income tax is a form of taxation. Therefore the constitution allows income tax.
    Once again the social contract was not entered into voluntarily and is thus null and void it is no more valid than a contract entered into by my great great grandfather to sell me into slavery before I was even born.

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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalAvenger View Post
    Because they had a code of honor and were great humanists. A lot of them were Masons who believed in the betterment of mankind.
    yeah but sadly many liberal confuse charity and helping others with government enforced redistribution.

    what is also pathetic is that your master is trying to cut back private charity by eliminating tax breaks for giving. that will decrease private charity by increasing its costs and then Obama and his toads will claim that more socialism is needed to combat the decrease in private charity.

    socialism does nothing to better mankind

    all it does is better the political power of greedy lib elites who want to get rich through politics rather than producing something of value



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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalAvenger View Post
    Because they had a code of honor and were great humanists. A lot of them were Masons who believed in the betterment of mankind.
    Yes, they were but they understood that by using the government to extract taxes via income taxes was theft and immoral. Their view was that the money generated from the labor of a person belonged to them. This is why they didn't have income taxes and every income tax that was pushed through up until the 16th Amendment was deemed unconstitutional. The first president to have an income tax was Lincoln.

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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    its better than the current system but tell me what is wrong with a regressive tax per se? The price of food, cars, tv's movie tickets, condoms, ping pong balls-in fact everything but government services is regressive.
    For one, it will actually hurt the economy. Businesses thrive on consumer spending. If the poor and middle class have to spend their money on a regressive tax, they won't have enough to spend on more consumer goods. And the wealthy do not consume enough to make up for it.

    It would also not bring in enough revenue to pay for all of our government-provided infrastructure. While you always focus on welfare, there is also defense spending, law enforcement, disaster response, transportation infrastructure, public education and regulatory agencies. All those programs require funding. Which is why a national flat tax won't bring in enough revenue, as the U.S. covers a third of a continent and it's costly to maintain social order for a landmass that size.

    To give an example, if we used a national flat tax, most people only purchase a very few of a particular good. For example, most people only have one bed or two or three TVs at most and one computer. While the wealthy may have the ability to purchase more goods, and probably do (for example, a wealthy person has 3 houses, so they buy 2 beds for each, 3 TVs for each, and 1 computer for each house) their level of consumption is not high enough to make up for what would be lost if we moved to a national flat sales tax.

    And while there are a larger number of poor and middle class people than there are of wealth, and so a larger number of poor and middle class consumers than wealthy consumers, the poor and middle class do not have the income available to purchase enough consumer goods to make up for what would be lost if we moved to a national flat sales tax.

    So to move to a national flat sales tax would cripple our government and the services they provides. And like I said before, that's not just welfare programs, such as food stamps, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, disability, and unemployment; it also includes federal law enforcement, such as the FBI, ATF, and DEA, defense spending, such as defense contracts for military equipment that grants our servicemen the advantage of force multipliers to be much deadlier than their opponents, disaster response, such FEMA to respond to unexpected natural disasters and federal programs to support local emergency responders, such as police departments, fire departments, and paramedics, transportation infrastructure, such as our federal highway system built for fast military transport but used everyday for civilian movement and flow of commerce but also includes our waterways for shipping, public education, which everyone refers to as our public elementary and high schools but also includes universities and colleges that businesses hire their skilled and educated employees from, and regulatory agencies, such as the SEC to ensure ethical stock practices, the FDA to ensure the people buy safe foods and drinks, and the EPA to enforce environmental laws to prevent industrial waste from poisoning American citizens.

    A national flat sales tax won't cover the expenses for all those federal programs and duties. And those federal programs and duties are what has allowed our nation to build itself up as a world power and sustain it.

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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalAvenger View Post
    Because they had a code of honor and were great humanists. A lot of them were Masons who believed in the betterment of mankind.
    The original constitution only allowed direct federal taxation through apportionment.

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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Once again the social contract was not entered into voluntarily and is thus null and void it is no more valid than a contract entered into by my great great grandfather to sell me into slavery before I was even born.
    you ought to ask her if she lived in some muslim or African nations if it is legitimate that her father sell her to the highest bidder for a dowery. after all sharia law allows "arranged marriages"

    Somehow I think she'd be upset at that or if she were in a society where her poor parents would sell her off for god knows what purposes to help pay their debts.



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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    For one, it will actually hurt the economy. Businesses thrive on consumer spending. If the poor and middle class have to spend their money on a regressive tax, they won't have enough to spend on more consumer goods. And the wealthy do not consume enough to make up for it.

    It would also not bring in enough revenue to pay for all of our government-provided infrastructure. While you always focus on welfare, there is also defense spending, law enforcement, disaster response, transportation infrastructure, public education and regulatory agencies. All those programs require funding. Which is why a national flat tax won't bring in enough revenue, as the U.S. covers a third of a continent and it's costly to maintain social order for a landmass that size.

    To give an example, if we used a national flat tax, most people only purchase a very few of a particular good. For example, most people only have one bed or two or three TVs at most and one computer. While the wealthy may have the ability to purchase more goods, and probably do (for example, a wealthy person has 3 houses, so they buy 2 beds for each, 3 TVs for each, and 1 computer for each house) their level of consumption is not high enough to make up for what would be lost if we moved to a national flat sales tax.

    And while there are a larger number of poor and middle class people than there are of wealth, and so a larger number of poor and middle class consumers than wealthy consumers, the poor and middle class do not have the income available to purchase enough consumer goods to make up for what would be lost if we moved to a national flat sales tax.

    So to move to a national flat sales tax would cripple our government and the services they provides. And like I said before, that's not just welfare programs, such as food stamps, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, disability, and unemployment; it also includes federal law enforcement, such as the FBI, ATF, and DEA, defense spending, such as defense contracts for military equipment that grants our servicemen the advantage of force multipliers to be much deadlier than their opponents, disaster response, such FEMA to respond to unexpected natural disasters and federal programs to support local emergency responders, such as police departments, fire departments, and paramedics, transportation infrastructure, such as our federal highway system built for fast military transport but used everyday for civilian movement and flow of commerce but also includes our waterways for shipping, public education, which everyone refers to as our public elementary and high schools but also includes universities and colleges that businesses hire their skilled and educated employees from, and regulatory agencies, such as the SEC to ensure ethical stock practices, the FDA to ensure the people buy safe foods and drinks, and the EPA to enforce environmental laws to prevent industrial waste from poisoning American citizens.

    A national flat sales tax won't cover the expenses for all those federal programs and duties. And those federal programs and duties are what has allowed our nation to build itself up as a world power and sustain it.
    You know what that tells me? It tells me the federal government is spending trillions of dollars that it has no authority in the Constitution to spend. Cut out the unconstitutional programs and the original system put in the Constitution would work. I say it would work, because the United States had paid off every debt it incurred during the War of Independence and operated in the black. This is also why there is a clause in the Constitution that guarantees that the debts the states incurred from the war and until the ratification of the Constitution. I give you Article VI Clause I.

    All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    For one, it will actually hurt the economy. Businesses thrive on consumer spending. If the poor and middle class have to spend their money on a regressive tax, they won't have enough to spend on more consumer goods. And the wealthy do not consume enough to make up for it.

    It would also not bring in enough revenue to pay for all of our government-provided infrastructure. While you always focus on welfare, there is also defense spending, law enforcement, disaster response, transportation infrastructure, public education and regulatory agencies. All those programs require funding. Which is why a national flat tax won't bring in enough revenue, as the U.S. covers a third of a continent and it's costly to maintain social order for a landmass that size.

    To give an example, if we used a national flat tax, most people only purchase a very few of a particular good. For example, most people only have one bed or two or three TVs at most and one computer. While the wealthy may have the ability to purchase more goods, and probably do (for example, a wealthy person has 3 houses, so they buy 2 beds for each, 3 TVs for each, and 1 computer for each house) their level of consumption is not high enough to make up for what would be lost if we moved to a national flat sales tax.

    And while there are a larger number of poor and middle class people than there are of wealth, and so a larger number of poor and middle class consumers than wealthy consumers, the poor and middle class do not have the income available to purchase enough consumer goods to make up for what would be lost if we moved to a national flat sales tax.

    So to move to a national flat sales tax would cripple our government and the services they provides. And like I said before, that's not just welfare programs, such as food stamps, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, disability, and unemployment; it also includes federal law enforcement, such as the FBI, ATF, and DEA, defense spending, such as defense contracts for military equipment that grants our servicemen the advantage of force multipliers to be much deadlier than their opponents, disaster response, such FEMA to respond to unexpected natural disasters and federal programs to support local emergency responders, such as police departments, fire departments, and paramedics, transportation infrastructure, such as our federal highway system built for fast military transport but used everyday for civilian movement and flow of commerce but also includes our waterways for shipping, public education, which everyone refers to as our public elementary and high schools but also includes universities and colleges that businesses hire their skilled and educated employees from, and regulatory agencies, such as the SEC to ensure ethical stock practices, the FDA to ensure the people buy safe foods and drinks, and the EPA to enforce environmental laws to prevent industrial waste from poisoning American citizens.

    A national flat sales tax won't cover the expenses for all those federal programs and duties. And those federal programs and duties are what has allowed our nation to build itself up as a world power and sustain it.
    So apparently your argument is that the state has the right to violate the non-aggression principle and infringe upon the individuals right to self ownership because the state HAS to violate the non-aggression principle and infringe upon the individuals right of self ownership to continue to function. Well that's kind of the whole point, the state is an illegitimate entity which has to by its very nature enslave the populace through illegitimate actions in order to continue its survival.

  10. #410
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    no-an amendment to the constitution supposedly allows income tax but it was anathema to the founding fathers

    lets suppose the income tax is being discussed prior to ratification-give us a good argument why we should have an income tax

    and make it to the founders-for they were land owners and pretty much the top of society.


    make an argument why winners would incorporate such a thing in a document they created
    You should pay taxes proportionate to your income. Lets say the tax rate is 20%, and like you want it is the same for all citizens. The person making $500,00 will pay $100,000 in taxes, barring any deductions. A substantial amount, but it doesn't hinder the person making $500,000 as much as it hinders the person making $15,000 who will pay $3,000. Because the person making $15,000 is more likely to spend all of that money, maybe even more spending on just the basic needs to live. Like shelter, food, clothes, transportation, electricity, water,etc. While the person making $500,000 doesn't have that problem. So I ask the question, why do you want to take money from the less fortunate? Like were on food stamps because we want to be on them.

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